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Why I’m Leaving Elm

lukeplant.me.uk

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Re: Why I’m Leaving Elm

#171

Post by asdfasgasdgasdg »

hombre_fatal wrote: post #125
whelming_wave wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would they do? I'm not sure there's an actual threat to follow through on. They can't block a forked compiler from, for example, using official packages without close-sourcing their own compiler (to prevent it from bringing in whatever change makes it work again). At that point, why bother respecting the threat? A forked compiler isn't going to get maintainers? A package depending on the forked compiler isn't go…

This discussion about whether or not the "Elm community" will be meanies is missing the point and inventing a hypothetical scenario where you get kicked out of some club. Kind of a weird conjecture to me. I guarantee nobody truly cares that you fork Elm. The thing is that generally people who threaten to fork Elm are quite hostile on the Elm forums and subreddit. If you fork Elm, an already tiny ecosystem, you'll rea…

> I guarantee nobody truly cares that you fork Elm.

The article cites a comment by one of the elm core maintainers where that maintainer says he is opposed to the author forking Elm, and will consider it an attack on Elm's goals if he does. So I think we can safely discard this conjecture.

Re: Why I’m Leaving Elm

#172

Post by rriepe »

SrslyJosh wrote: post #162
superdisk wrote: post #145

I fully agree with everything listed in this article. One point he alluded to (by mentioning the "friendly" exclamation marks) but didn't fully address is the Elm community's bizarre and infuriating language policing. You can't say the word "guys" in the Slack channel, or a bot will come and correct you, and tell you to say "folks" instead. And from then on, you'll notice the core team all use the word "folks" incess…

> You can't say the word "guys" in the Slack channel, or a bot will come and correct you, and tell you to say "folks" instead. Being asked to use inclusive language is a weird thing to complain about, especially as the very first example you give. > And from then on, you'll notice the core team all use the word "folks" incessantly in their writing, it's like some weird cult. I use "folks" and other non-gendered langu…

What is he allowed to complain about first?

Re: Why I’m Leaving Elm

#173

Post by serf »

SrslyJosh wrote: post #162
superdisk wrote: post #145

I fully agree with everything listed in this article. One point he alluded to (by mentioning the "friendly" exclamation marks) but didn't fully address is the Elm community's bizarre and infuriating language policing. You can't say the word "guys" in the Slack channel, or a bot will come and correct you, and tell you to say "folks" instead. And from then on, you'll notice the core team all use the word "folks" incess…

> You can't say the word "guys" in the Slack channel, or a bot will come and correct you, and tell you to say "folks" instead. Being asked to use inclusive language is a weird thing to complain about, especially as the very first example you give. > And from then on, you'll notice the core team all use the word "folks" incessantly in their writing, it's like some weird cult. I use "folks" and other non-gendered langu…

>Being asked to use inclusive language is a weird thing to complain about

that is, if you consider the word 'guys' as gender bound and inclusive.

Female friends with myself in attendance are often referred to as 'Guys' by waitresses, waiters, and serving staff nearly anywhere I've gone. A former roommate who worked as a server at a restaurant used the word non-inclusively with the same meaning as 'Folks'.

So, first get people to believe the word 'Guy' is inclusive.

It's not.

It's originally synonymous with 'Fellow'[0], which is also from non-inclusive origins meaning colleague, even if 'Fellow' was attached to males in the 50s and 60s common American English.

>I use "folks" and other non-gendered language by my own choice. It's a habit I developed after self-reflection. Am I in a cult?

Good. That's a great choice of habit. I commend you.

Now, please, reconsider 'Guys', it's not as bad as the (current) common tongue might paint it.

[0]: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/201...

Re: Why I’m Leaving Elm

#174

Post by yawaramin »

savanaly wrote: post #168

Elm wasn't the right language/community for this author and that's ok, not everything is for everyone. I use and love elm as something to write my side projects in. It has a zen like appeal for many reasons: - No runtime exceptions in practice, so you are developing against the compiler and almost never need to manually test what you're writing - Very opinionated about how to do most things. There's usually just one…

May I ask, how are you doing i10n?

Re: Why I’m Leaving Elm

#175

Post by ng12 »

SrslyJosh wrote: post #162
superdisk wrote: post #145

I fully agree with everything listed in this article. One point he alluded to (by mentioning the "friendly" exclamation marks) but didn't fully address is the Elm community's bizarre and infuriating language policing. You can't say the word "guys" in the Slack channel, or a bot will come and correct you, and tell you to say "folks" instead. And from then on, you'll notice the core team all use the word "folks" incess…

> You can't say the word "guys" in the Slack channel, or a bot will come and correct you, and tell you to say "folks" instead. Being asked to use inclusive language is a weird thing to complain about, especially as the very first example you give. > And from then on, you'll notice the core team all use the word "folks" incessantly in their writing, it's like some weird cult. I use "folks" and other non-gendered langu…

Any personal behavior becomes cultish when it's other people dictating you adopt them.

Re: Why I’m Leaving Elm

#176

Post by otabdeveloper4 »

SrslyJosh wrote: post #162
superdisk wrote: post #145

I fully agree with everything listed in this article. One point he alluded to (by mentioning the "friendly" exclamation marks) but didn't fully address is the Elm community's bizarre and infuriating language policing. You can't say the word "guys" in the Slack channel, or a bot will come and correct you, and tell you to say "folks" instead. And from then on, you'll notice the core team all use the word "folks" incess…

> You can't say the word "guys" in the Slack channel, or a bot will come and correct you, and tell you to say "folks" instead. Being asked to use inclusive language is a weird thing to complain about, especially as the very first example you give. > And from then on, you'll notice the core team all use the word "folks" incessantly in their writing, it's like some weird cult. I use "folks" and other non-gendered langu…

> Being forced to use inclusive newspeak is a weird thing to complain about.

Somehow your post sounds threatening. I'm guessing it's intentional.

Re: Why I’m Leaving Elm

#177

Post by davidcuddeback »

diggan wrote: post #59
kazinator wrote: post #19

I don't agree with everything here. Open source really does mean that you just have all the code to rebuild the thing from scratch under the right sort of license. Open source doesn't mean anything else, like having access to design decisions. Interaction style and personalities are also not part of the definition of open source; open source doesn't mean nobody is brusque or abrasive. Some communities have additional…

Agree. I'm gonna be honest and say I haven't finished the entire article so author might have elaborated further after, but I got a chill when reading the following passage: > The second is that if you advertise something as Open Source, there is a common set of assumptions about what that means, some of which are explicit in accepted definitions of the term. It seems the "common set of assumptions" is around that pe…

>> The second is that if you advertise something as Open Source, there is a common set of assumptions about what that means, some of which are explicit in accepted definitions of the term.

> It seems the "common set of assumptions" is around that people can get involved and actually have impact on the direction of the project, but that's not at all included in the actual definition of open source. https://opensource.org/osd

To add to that, the OP's argument seems to hinge on Elm "advertising" itself as open source. I don't see "open source" mentioned on https://elm-lang.org/ or anywhere else. I'm curious where the OP thinks Elm crossed the line from having an open source LICENSE file to "advertising" itself as open source.

If the answer is that an open source LICENSE file counts as "advertising" a project as open source, then why use the inflated language in the blog post? Why not say, "If you [release something with an open source license], there is a common set of assumptions about what that means, some of which are explicit in accepted definitions of the term?"

Also, explicit in which accepted definitions of the term? The OP seems to be stating that without linking to these accepted definitions that would back him up.

Re: Why I’m Leaving Elm

#178

Post by whelming_wave »

macintux wrote: post #160
whelming_wave wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand your argument about ecosystem being far more important. People ceasing use of any of the tools necessarily removes them from the ecosystem and community. They have no reason to care about those things.

But they’re almost certainly moving to a new platform with a community, which is much easier than trying to build one from scratch.

Definitely. At that point, they need to weigh the cost of migrating their existing project to a new platform, or to maintain the patches that will allow the old platform to have the flexibility they need.

It's important to remember that they aren't being removed from the Elm community - they can still use the packages, the compiler will still get updates they could presumably rebase their patches on.

Re: Why I’m Leaving Elm

#179

Post by asdfasgasdgasdg »

jlokier wrote: post #170
asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Of course the author is unlikely to present it that way. I don't really get this accusation in light of the author leading the article with admissions of their own failings in terms of how they communicated with the maintainers of the project?

I'm writing in response to this remark, presented in the parent to my comment: > he claims that the Elm community will excommunicate you for forking. If that is correct, what I said is less accusation and more descriptive, and should really say something stronger: "the author hasn't presented it that way." However if the parent to my comment is mistaken, then I agree that would make that sentence in my response unfai…

The bit about "excommunication" is very explicitly linked to the author's plan to fork Elm. Now, I don't think "excommunication" is necessarily the correct descriptor. The Elm maintainer who made the threat said that he considered making a fork on "attack" on Elm's goals [1], and that the project would not be greeted with open arms. (Although in the original comment it was a little less clear whether it was the project or the person to whom arms would not be open.) In any case, I think the comment is very clear that the hostility is to the action of forking, irrespective of previous communication problems.

[1]: https://github.com/gdotdesign/elm-github-install/issues/62#i...

Re: Why I’m Leaving Elm

#180

Post by philh »

hombre_fatal wrote: post #125
whelming_wave wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would they do? I'm not sure there's an actual threat to follow through on. They can't block a forked compiler from, for example, using official packages without close-sourcing their own compiler (to prevent it from bringing in whatever change makes it work again). At that point, why bother respecting the threat? A forked compiler isn't going to get maintainers? A package depending on the forked compiler isn't go…

This discussion about whether or not the "Elm community" will be meanies is missing the point and inventing a hypothetical scenario where you get kicked out of some club. Kind of a weird conjecture to me. I guarantee nobody truly cares that you fork Elm. The thing is that generally people who threaten to fork Elm are quite hostile on the Elm forums and subreddit. If you fork Elm, an already tiny ecosystem, you'll rea…

> I guarantee nobody truly cares that you fork Elm.

One of my coworkers once edited the elm compiler to remove the native code restrictions, and placed it on NPM. Evan emailed him and asked him to take it down.

There may be more to the story that I don't know, but from what I know it sounds like Evan does care.

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