Japan to fund firms to shift production out of China • Hacker News Board

Re: Japan to fund firms to shift production out of China

#181

Post by magicsmoke » Thu, Apr 09, 2020, 5:00 PM UTC

justin66 wrote: post #80

jennyyang wrote: post #4

At the very least, medical supplies and drugs manufacturing will get pulled back into each country. The 3M spat between Canada and the US makes it abundantly clear that in a time of true crisis, you can't even trust your closest friends when something terrifying happens to the world like this pandemic. Whether it means all manufacturing will move away from China or if it means that they will spread it globally, is an…

> The 3M spat between Canada and the US makes it abundantly clear that in a time of true crisis, you can't even trust your closest friends when something terrifying happens to the world like this pandemic. I think the Canadians worked that out a few years ago when the Trump administration declared Canadian steel a security threat to the United States so they could impose trade restrictions in contravention of our tre…

The last time Canada had a military backstop against the US was when the British empire was still around, back in the 1920s when stuff like War Plan Red and Defence Scheme No. 1 was floating around about how a US-Canada/British war would play out. After WW2 and the collapse of the British empire, Canada had no military last resort against the US. 100 years is a hell of a long time to develop Stockholm syndrome.

To be fair, before WW2 Canada was a protectorate of Britain as well. Such is the fate of smaller players on the world stage.

Re: Japan to fund firms to shift production out of China

#182

Post by Analemma_ » Thu, Apr 09, 2020, 5:02 PM UTC

throw_m239339 wrote: post #145

jorblumesea wrote: post #127

Easier said than done, given that the Chinese government is pretty much writing blank checks to attract, retain and gather just about every form of IP and manufacturing processes known. You see the same thing with 5G, where the goals of the Chinese government isn't so much to produce a price competitive product but crush global competition in the marketplace by whatever means possible. How can you compete with subsid…

> How can you compete with subsidies so heavy it's basically free? Well we need to acknowledge the treat that is China first and foremost, which is hard for a entire generation of people who grew up addicted to China cheap goods. China is a (bloody) dictatorship, they can plan a global strategy 50 years in advance. Our western countries are weak because of political whims and are unable to trace a clear strategy beca…

> they can plan a global strategy 50 years in advance. Our western countries are weak because of political whims and are unable to trace a clear strategy because we have been all about short term profit for 40 years now.

This sort of alarmism about "our enemies are outmaneuvering us with long-term planning while we only pay attention to the immediate future" is common, but historically these predictions have never panned out. Go back and read Michael Crichton's Rising Sun sometime, he goes on and on for pages with arguments totally isomorphic to yours: Japan is going to take over the world because of their crafty long-term planning and investment, etc. It was published in 1992, at which point the Japanese bubble had already burst and Japan entered a period of stagnation that continues to this day. People said the same thing about Germany in the 70's, the Soviet Union in the 60's, and on and on.

Der mentsh trakht un got lakht.

Re: Japan to fund firms to shift production out of China

#183

Post by DiogenesKynikos » Thu, Apr 09, 2020, 5:02 PM UTC

philliphaydon wrote: post #177

FooBarWidget wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well doesn't the fact that they mention "SARS" confirm that they didn't know it was a new virus? COVID-19 is not SARS. It's less lethal but far more contagious. SARS would not have been such a big issue because it doesn't spread as easily.

Lol Jesus Christ dude stop trying to make excuses for China trying to cover up the whole thing. In early December China thought it was SARS. They found out later it was Wu Flu. Doesn’t change the fact they knew sooner than you claim.

In early December, nobody had any idea this virus existed. The earliest patient checked into Wuhan Central Hospital on 16 December 2019, and doctors treated the patient with flu drugs. They only ordered lab tests in late December, and the first test results came back on 27 December 2019. That was the first moment that anyone had any evidence of a new virus.

This is an important issue, so please be careful about verifying your claims before you make them.

Re: Japan to fund firms to shift production out of China

#184

Post by sheeshkebab » Thu, Apr 09, 2020, 5:02 PM UTC

mikechen233 wrote: post #134

Just today telsa sold 10000 cars in the Shanghai factory in March and Tesla stock jumped as result. I have a feeling that with Europe and US in continue lock down, China is going to support a huge number businesses. Looking at a number of Western business, all cite china has a very important market. Everyone of them earned a ton of money from that market. Some manufacturing will leave china, but if business want to a…

The question is not about China being villiefied, but what happens with critical supplies sourced from abroad (from China and others) in critical times. With current manufacturing largely skewed to China, the results are pretty obvious as far as medical supplies go. It won’t take long before that gets corrected, together with some other industries.

Re: Japan to fund firms to shift production out of China

#185

Post by aianus » Thu, Apr 09, 2020, 5:03 PM UTC

magicsmoke wrote: post #87

dchichkov wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is difficult to compete with a strategic program like "Made in China 2025". We'll see. I'd guess, no change - the subsidy program in China will remain largest and most competitive, market will seeks subsidies of the largest program. The externalities, like the single point of failure that you've pointed out, will be ignored.

The subsidies from Made in China 2025 won't be going to foreign companies since it's supposed fund Chinese companies and domestic innovation so they can have replacements for foreign tech IP. There should be no reason for the international market to think they can get some of that money.

> There should be no reason for the international market to think they can get some of that money.

Unless the Chinese companies receiving the subsidies are barred from exporting their products, then the global market will buy those subsidized products and global unsubsidized competitors will suffer.

You are not allowed to export state subsidized products per WTO rules.

Re: Japan to fund firms to shift production out of China

#186

Post by systemvoltage » Thu, Apr 09, 2020, 5:03 PM UTC

showbufire wrote: post #161

systemvoltage wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CCP does not understand that playing asymmetric games from business laws (booting Uber off of China for example), diplomacy and global influence, etc is damaging long term brand and goodwill. In this pandemic, democratic nations are suffering more than authoritarian regimes purely by choice - complete Wuhan style measures are unacceptable say in Sweden. This asymmetry is going to give a short term boost to China. Lon…

booting off Uber? Have you ever used Uber and its local competitor Didi in China? I've used both multiple times. The competition was just too much, both companies were losing money at a pace that's not sustainable. The Uber China business was acquired, and in return Uber received cash and stakes in Didi.

Oh come on, there is no denying that China subsidizes local businesses asymmetrically.

I've lived in China and have used Didi.

Re: Japan to fund firms to shift production out of China

#187

Post by the-dude » Thu, Apr 09, 2020, 5:09 PM UTC

FooBarWidget wrote: post #123

systemvoltage wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a ton of sources here: https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/china-floods-europe-d... China is trying the same thing that US did for many decades after WWII - to rally up global support through humanitarian aid: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_foreign_aid The problem is that the whole thing feels fake for 2 reasons (this is my personal opinion): 1) They are an authoritarian state using soft pow…

Those sources are not being honest. Yes countries initially claimed that kits and masks were defective. But later researches showed that countries made wrong orders because of haste, not understanding Chinese standards, etc. I already said elsewhere that the Dutch ordered wrong masks. In case of the Spanish: they ordered kits for testing whether a recovered patient had the virus, not for testing whether one is infect…

Sources please ( I am Dutch and I am surprised about your claims ).

Re: Japan to fund firms to shift production out of China

#188

Post by FooBarWidget » Thu, Apr 09, 2020, 5:10 PM UTC

philliphaydon wrote: post #177

FooBarWidget wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well doesn't the fact that they mention "SARS" confirm that they didn't know it was a new virus? COVID-19 is not SARS. It's less lethal but far more contagious. SARS would not have been such a big issue because it doesn't spread as easily.

Lol Jesus Christ dude stop trying to make excuses for China trying to cover up the whole thing. In early December China thought it was SARS. They found out later it was Wu Flu. Doesn’t change the fact they knew sooner than you claim.

How is that 'making excuses'? I gave an argument, and instead of making your own logical argument you are dismissing it out of hand as 'excuse'. Maybe you just want to believe in a cover-up so badly that you don't want to think logically about it anymore.

Re: Japan to fund firms to shift production out of China

#189

Post by hindsightbias » Thu, Apr 09, 2020, 5:11 PM UTC

henearkr wrote: post #10

I'm surprised that Japan's government is feeling this as a priority right now... There are no problems for goods importation between Japan and China now, and as in China the pandemics has been largely reduced, there should not be in the near future neither. PS: Japan and more precisely Tokyo is on the brink to imitate the human tragedy of Italy and US, so maybe they could vote some different budgets for now... (like,…

I love Japan, but there is such a disconnect between planning management and crises management in the country. Watching NHK live while the PM’s office read from their TepCo supplied everything-is-fine talking points while Fukushima #3 exploded in the background was just... sublimely surreal.

Even the commentators hesitated to note the exploding nuclear reactor building because it was no doubt disrespectful to the PM.

Re: Japan to fund firms to shift production out of China

#190

Post by president » Thu, Apr 09, 2020, 5:12 PM UTC

mikechen233 wrote: post #134

Just today telsa sold 10000 cars in the Shanghai factory in March and Tesla stock jumped as result. I have a feeling that with Europe and US in continue lock down, China is going to support a huge number businesses. Looking at a number of Western business, all cite china has a very important market. Everyone of them earned a ton of money from that market. Some manufacturing will leave china, but if business want to a…

How many Chinese people died unneedlessly by the hands of the CCP for you to finally be able to buy an iPhone? The mark of a great society and system of governance is not based solely on the common citizen being able to buy a pair of Nike shoes.