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Tell HN: Cisco WebEx on OS X uses the same pre-installer tricks as Zoom

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Re: Tell HN: Cisco WebEx on OS X uses the same pre-installer tricks as Zoom

#91

Post by tonypace »

qwerty456127 wrote: post #70
x0x0 wrote: post #2

Everyone who's spent 3 hours talking a parent through downloading and installing a Zoom client understands exactly why they're doing this. Mine are unable to (1) reliably download a zip file; (2) navigate to that file using Finder; (3) run something inside it. By the time we were done -- I use copilot (basically VNC with NAT punching built in) -- and I got control of the laptop to just do it myself, there were 7 down…

This highlights a problem we should have addressed long ago - engineer a method to reliably educate old people about using modern computers so they could develop the same kind of intuitive understanding we have.

That would be good, but it seems to take kids a few years to learn the ropes. I don't feel like older people have the patience or peer pressure. Would love to be proved wrong, though. I would have paid money to make that problem go away when I had it with Skype.

Re: Tell HN: Cisco WebEx on OS X uses the same pre-installer tricks as Zoom

#92

Post by mschuster91 »

monadic2 wrote: post #65
izacus wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This standard way doesn't work in corp environments (which WebEx and Zoom are targeting primarily), where machines are remotely provisioned. For decent macOS remote installs and updates you need the PKG format scripts.

What is so hard about remotely provisioning app bundles in a standard place? I ask because I have been tangentially involved in both image and script based provisioning and interacting with PKGs would seem to complicate, not simplify, both processes.

It's the processes. Every update will have to go through change requests, loads of approvals, ...

Re: Tell HN: Cisco WebEx on OS X uses the same pre-installer tricks as Zoom

#93

Post by nsgi »

jjtheblunt wrote: post #46
em-bee wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's not like the app couldn't do those shenanigans when it's first started...

It would have to ask for Admin role to do so, though.

Still plenty of evil things you can do without admin privileges, like running a server in the background that launches Zoom (as they tried previously).

Re: Tell HN: Cisco WebEx on OS X uses the same pre-installer tricks as Zoom

#94

Post by adwww »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #83

Why aren't more apps like Zoom and this one distributed via the app store? I mean besides the installer hackery they are legitimate and free apps right? Or would that mean that their premium services would require paying the fees to Apple, which they avoid this way?

Can you even use the app store with a company mac? Who has the login - your personal account or some corporate one?

Re: Tell HN: Cisco WebEx on OS X uses the same pre-installer tricks as Zoom

#95

Post by flatiron »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #83

Why aren't more apps like Zoom and this one distributed via the app store? I mean besides the installer hackery they are legitimate and free apps right? Or would that mean that their premium services would require paying the fees to Apple, which they avoid this way?

I know at least slack from the App Store can’t screen share for some reason. Maybe it’s not available as a permission from the App Store. [edit] apparently this may be old info

Re: Tell HN: Cisco WebEx on OS X uses the same pre-installer tricks as Zoom

#96

Post by berdario »

adwww wrote: post #94
Cthulhu_ wrote: post #83

Why aren't more apps like Zoom and this one distributed via the app store? I mean besides the installer hackery they are legitimate and free apps right? Or would that mean that their premium services would require paying the fees to Apple, which they avoid this way?

Can you even use the app store with a company mac? Who has the login - your personal account or some corporate one?

Good question, I think it should be the corporate one, and even if it might be a bit more work to setup, it's definitely in the company's interest, since then the applications that are installed can be sandboxed and be vetted/whitelisted more easily.

Re: Tell HN: Cisco WebEx on OS X uses the same pre-installer tricks as Zoom

#97

Post by berdario »

nathancahill wrote: post #84
jcelerier wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yes, it's a total pain. users send you a crash log, you see that they're on an old version, ask them to update. They say they do, you get the next crash log, and it's still the old version. And then you get a screenshot and you see 12 different versions of your .app, in the desktop, in ~/Applications, in /Applications...

Even worse when they don't copy it off the DMG. Just leave the DMG mounted.. forever.

Oh wow, I had no idea about the unintended consequences of the DMG + App bundle installation mechanism.

Maybe the issue could be ameliorated with a self-updater built-in into the app? Not a separate daemon, but something that by running inside the app, would be able to know what's the path of the old version that should be thrown away.

Re: Tell HN: Cisco WebEx on OS X uses the same pre-installer tricks as Zoom

#98

Post by codydh »

tonypace wrote: post #89
maccard wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 1. Genuine one or two-click install of software from the web, without the App Store being involved and without requiring sandboxing I disagree with this. Why is going via the app store a bad thing? The app store is the solution here. Zoom should be able to tell apple "Hey I'd like to handle zoom://" links, and clicking one will redirect you to either zoom or the app store (without the source of your link knowing wh…

No company that has a choice is going to pay Apple their tax. That's why the MacOS sure is always going to be the same as the Windows store: a home of loser apps. Since another install procedure is available, only losers will use the app store. Ergo, any software available through the app store is a loser app.

And yet Microsoft Office is available via the macOS App Store, alongside venerable packages like Adobe Lightroom and Photoshop, Logic and Final Cut (Apple-owned software), the Omni suite of software, Autodesk software, Pixelmator, etc.

The App Store has problems, but all apps there being "loser apps" is not one of them.

Re: Tell HN: Cisco WebEx on OS X uses the same pre-installer tricks as Zoom

#99

Post by ThePowerOfFuet »

flatiron wrote: post #95
Cthulhu_ wrote: post #83

Why aren't more apps like Zoom and this one distributed via the app store? I mean besides the installer hackery they are legitimate and free apps right? Or would that mean that their premium services would require paying the fees to Apple, which they avoid this way?

I know at least slack from the App Store can’t screen share for some reason. Maybe it’s not available as a permission from the App Store. [edit] apparently this may be old info

Yes it can.

Re: Tell HN: Cisco WebEx on OS X uses the same pre-installer tricks as Zoom

#100

Post by ThePowerOfFuet »

berdario wrote: post #97
nathancahill wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even worse when they don't copy it off the DMG. Just leave the DMG mounted.. forever.

Oh wow, I had no idea about the unintended consequences of the DMG + App bundle installation mechanism. Maybe the issue could be ameliorated with a self-updater built-in into the app? Not a separate daemon, but something that by running inside the app, would be able to know what's the path of the old version that should be thrown away.

The de facto standard for this is Sparkle.framework, and it's excellent.
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