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Nearly half of global coal plants will be unprofitable this year

reuters.com

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Re: Nearly half of global coal plants will be unprofitable this year

#71
post #10

> It looked at 6,696 operational plants and 1,046 in the pipeline and found that 46% will be unprofitable this year, up from 41% in 2019 I thought this is due to Covid-19 but apparently it's a chronic trend. > That will rise to 52% by 2030 as renewables and cheaper gas outcompete coal, the think tank said. A very slow one too.

A lot of coal plants in developed countries are closing. The least efficient ones are most likely to close. That should tend to make the % unprofitable fall, but it's rising instead.

Close or mothballed? There is a difference.

I met someone some years back who's job was to keep a coal power plant operational. The boiler was from the 1880s, and the generator installed in the 1920s. They don't use the generator as regular mains power costs 5 times less due to the efficiency of modern technology. However the utility gives them a large enough discount on power to keep it running that he had a job and can repair it as needed. Once every 5 years or so the utility calls him to turn it on and 12 hours later it is providing power to half the town.

I believe anicdotes like that are somewhat common as the utilities want to be sure there is always power when someone wants it.

Re: Nearly half of global coal plants will be unprofitable this year

#72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a threat that materialises in 2050+ What the heck are you talking about? We see the issues globally for last 20 years at least. Droughts, heatwaves in Europe killing tens of thousands, Islands in pacific being flooded due to sea rising and so on and on.

The models did not predict those things, and sea level has only risen 3.3mm since 1995 according to NOAA data. While the examples listed are certainly tragedies, we must be careful about attributing them post-hoc, as it weakens credibility for longer-term political optics.

I think you misread the data. NOAA says sea level is rising 3.3mm each year. 3.3mm is almost exactly an eighth of an inch. [1]

“In 2014, global sea level was 2.6 inches above the 1993 average—the highest annual average in the satellite record (1993-present). Sea level continues to rise at a rate of about one-eighth of an inch per year.”

[1] https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/facts/sealevel.html

Re: Nearly half of global coal plants will be unprofitable this year

#74
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of coal plants in developed countries are closing. The least efficient ones are most likely to close. That should tend to make the % unprofitable fall, but it's rising instead.

Close or mothballed? There is a difference. I met someone some years back who's job was to keep a coal power plant operational. The boiler was from the 1880s, and the generator installed in the 1920s. They don't use the generator as regular mains power costs 5 times less due to the efficiency of modern technology. However the utility gives them a large enough discount on power to keep it running that he had a job and…

Some are mothballing but a lot are being demolished. Here are a few recent articles:

"Demolition Of Power Plant Rumbles Across Bucks County" https://levittownnow.com/2020/04/04/demolition-of-power-plan...

"Fortum’s Inkoo coal-fired power plant demolished to ground level" https://www.webwire.com/ViewPressRel.asp?aId=257097

"Last Smokestack Demolished At Former Coal-Fired Power Plant" https://www.wgbh.org/news/local-news/2020/02/24/last-smokest...

"Sunbury Generation plant demolished by explosives" https://local21news.com/news/local/watch-sunbury-generation-...

Re: Nearly half of global coal plants will be unprofitable this year

#75
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of coal plants in developed countries are closing. The least efficient ones are most likely to close. That should tend to make the % unprofitable fall, but it's rising instead.

Close or mothballed? There is a difference. I met someone some years back who's job was to keep a coal power plant operational. The boiler was from the 1880s, and the generator installed in the 1920s. They don't use the generator as regular mains power costs 5 times less due to the efficiency of modern technology. However the utility gives them a large enough discount on power to keep it running that he had a job and…

Most peaker plants are natural gas these days. Coal plants tend to take a lot longer to start. Regardless of that, from a climate change point of view, a plant that runs for a small amount of time once per 5 years is not that significant.

Re: Nearly half of global coal plants will be unprofitable this year

#76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps, but it’s hard to see China ever wanting to become too dependent on imported natural gas. They like coal not only because it’s cheap (which, increasingly, it isn’t), but because it’s domestic .

The virus might change that calculation to some degree, now that we know it can be transmitted via air pollution.

[deleted]

Re: Nearly half of global coal plants will be unprofitable this year

#77
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of coal plants in developed countries are closing. The least efficient ones are most likely to close. That should tend to make the % unprofitable fall, but it's rising instead.

Close or mothballed? There is a difference. I met someone some years back who's job was to keep a coal power plant operational. The boiler was from the 1880s, and the generator installed in the 1920s. They don't use the generator as regular mains power costs 5 times less due to the efficiency of modern technology. However the utility gives them a large enough discount on power to keep it running that he had a job and…

In Memphis, TN, the Tennessee Valley Authority (the power producer for the region) has built several advanced combined cycle natural gas plants, these are not peakers, to replace a very large coal plant.

Re: Nearly half of global coal plants will be unprofitable this year

#78

If this comes true which is a BIG if since the calculations include "carbon pricing and pollution policies" which are not happening anytime soon in China. It will be almost completely due to the cheap price of natural gas not renewables as the article implies.

Solar's gone down in price 80% in a decade, and is still continuing that downward trend.

Wind, both on and offshore, is also getting cheaper.

By 2030, new solar will certainly be cheaper in China than it is to operate existing coal plants.

I'm a lot more comfortable betting that mass-manufactured things get cheaper, than I am on the price of natural gas a few years or a decade out. With solar and wind going down another 50% and battery prices under $100/kWh, the economics are pretty powerful.

The politics are just as powerful; China has massive internal pressure to clean up the air (and people have been reminded of how clean it could be), and a chance at replacing the US for world leadership if it can show the way forward on climate.

Re: Nearly half of global coal plants will be unprofitable this year

#79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, you’d think if 41% were unprofitable this year then next year there’d only be 4000 odd coal-fired plants, and so on and so forth. So obviously profitability isn’t the only thing keeping these plants open or not. Additionally: but this risks locking in high-cost coal power Coal is only high-cost when compared against certain metrics that favour non-coal electricity sources. On the whole electricity is extremely…

I assume you're counting the cost of pollution and carbon into your price of coal electricity, right?

It is insane to me that doing this is not a part of GAAP, and is very much the exception rather then the rule.

Re: Nearly half of global coal plants will be unprofitable this year

#80
Japan is building new plants. You'll see that news a bunch. What you do not see is the why.

Japan has companies which are building new coal plants in order to replace existing plants. Old coal plants have lower efficiency. Old coal plants produce more pollution.

A none trivial reason why so many old coal plants are unprofitable is because other newer fossil fuel plants can out compete them.

Sure renewables play a part, but the single biggest reason those old plants cannot make money at current energy prices is simple competition. New plants are buying the same coal but getting more electricity per ton while using larger and more automated plants. Meaning more revenue per ton with lower overhead.

Coal as a whole will decrease, but along the way new plants need to be built. Yet the media treats all coal plants as a single monolith. "How could a country be building new plants when existing old plants are unprofitable". The media would do well to educate and inform instead.

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