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Governments Introduce Surveillance Under Veil of Coronavirus Control

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Re: Governments Introduce Surveillance Under Veil of Coronavirus Control

#101

Post by ozim »

seeTheAstroturf wrote: post #59
simion314 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you assume that yourself are the number guy and know better, so what is the equation that will determine when lockdown is more efficient? what are the inputs in that equation ? Why car deaths would be a factor in why you should implement a lockdown. If you go to a hospital with a illness X would you like a response like "X kills less then cars in our country, until traffic laws are fixed we decided you can suffer…

I think it's fair to do death vs death. Especially if Corona disproportionately affects people who have lived 60+ years already. Car deaths affect people of all ages. The economic collapse and scare has caused people to cancel or delay surgeries, dental work, physical therapy, buy newer and safer cars, home abuse has gone up, I imagine exercise has gone down, I wonder how alcohol use has changed. You can quantify the…

In 2017 deaths from road accidents in Italy 3378, that is number for the whole year. Since half of January in Italy died 17669 people because of virus...

People who are 50+ or 60+ are still productive members of society. They take care of children for young professionals, support them with their savings, bond family members that would otherwise do stupid stuff.

Lots of those young people will get psychical issues because their family members died. Like mother, father, grandmother and grandfather died at the same time because of virus. How much that can lead to alcoholism or suicides?

This kind of thing would not happen if there is social distancing in place. This kind of thing like wiping whole family elders at once happens rarely with car deaths.

Re: Governments Introduce Surveillance Under Veil of Coronavirus Control

#102

Post by ozim »

seeTheAstroturf wrote: post #68
simion314 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But why cars? It would make sense if you are an extreme capitalist to put money in the equation, how much a life costs, how much lockdown costs, how much it costs to find a cure, how much it costs to let everyone sick die but it would make no sense to bring cars into this, think about it your calculation would be different depending on the country or state, like if you are in the country with horible driving bad luck…

Because we will always drive cars, and in 5 years there will be no coronavirus. Would it have been better to spend our resources on more complex airbag systems that would last as long as humans drive or a lockdown to save our oldest population for 3 years? I think this math problem is easier than we would like, but politically it's unpopular.

What is the probability of someones mother, father, grandmother, grandfather and all uncles/aunts die at the same time because of car accidents?

If they all are now above 50 chances they might die because of this virus are quite high.

That is high price if one is losing his social grounding when he is 20 because he survived... Yeah he might get inheritance and have his young friends but I would not be happy if most of my relatives are dead.

Re: Governments Introduce Surveillance Under Veil of Coronavirus Control

#104

Post by SuoDuanDao »

simion314 wrote: post #93
SuoDuanDao wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the point is, Forcing people to stay home is a solve against cars and coronavirus. The death rate for cars is higher, so why haven't we forced a lockdown to deal with car deaths? What makes the Coronavirus different, besides that it's been 100 years since we've had a serious pandemic?

I think your assumptions might be wrong though, if I use the numbers from here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-r... and calculate for Italy I get 3600 car fatalities, and there are aprox 18000 deaths by covid with a lockdown on. Let me know if my numbers are wrong.

Italy's a bit of an outlier due to both average age and how they count covid deaths. If we look at Germany instead, we get 3.6K deaths by car (in 2016) vs 1.8K deaths from covid. There are all kinds of different assumptions about unconfirmed cases etc, but even in the most optimistic scenarios, it's roughly the same order of magnitude either way.

Re: Governments Introduce Surveillance Under Veil of Coronavirus Control

#105

Post by [deleted] »

soraminazuki wrote: post #52
hurricanetc wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The shelter in place orders started off completely voluntary. People ignored them. And it escalated. People continued to ignore and the policies continued to escalate. We didn’t go from zero to where we are now. People caused this.

There always have been people who act selfishly. I'd bet you anything that it has also been this way when the Bill of Rights was written. Does that mean civil rights was a mistake? Absolutely not.

[deleted]

Re: Governments Introduce Surveillance Under Veil of Coronavirus Control

#106

Post by eeZah7Ux »

hurricanetc wrote: post #2

It’s too bad that people can’t follow simple requests. Governments are forced to choose between allowing idiot citizens to destroy society or to implement draconian policies. Medical professionals are being asked to come out of retirement. Nurses are reusing PPE for weeks. Medical students are graduating early to help. The rest of us are being asked to just stay the fuck home for a few weeks. And we just refuse to do…

How convenient.

Re: Governments Introduce Surveillance Under Veil of Coronavirus Control

#107

Post by krapp »

soraminazuki wrote: post #52
hurricanetc wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The shelter in place orders started off completely voluntary. People ignored them. And it escalated. People continued to ignore and the policies continued to escalate. We didn’t go from zero to where we are now. People caused this.

There always have been people who act selfishly. I'd bet you anything that it has also been this way when the Bill of Rights was written. Does that mean civil rights was a mistake? Absolutely not.

The same government that added the Second Amendment to the Constitution put down Shay's Rebellion, and when Thomas Jefferson wrote that "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure" in reference to that rebellion, he wasn't being complementary.

The founding fathers believed in government, they weren't anarchists, they believed that government could be good and do good, not that government is inherently and irreconcilably hostile to liberty. They also believed in society and the concept of the greater good, not that individual liberty and freedom matter above all else.

Indeed, when Benjamin Franklin said "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety," he was arguing (in a very specific context[0]) against the "temporary safety" of individual liberty versus the "essential liberty" guaranteed by the state.

I wouldn't assume that the founding fathers would side with the people purposely undermining quarantine efforts in this case. They'd probably have such people hanged.

[0]https://techcrunch.com/2014/02/14/how-the-world-butchered-be...

Re: Governments Introduce Surveillance Under Veil of Coronavirus Control

#108

Post by kyuudou »

sharken wrote: post #99
kyuudou wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd say it's a bit disingenuous comparing Italy with California demographically - we're talking about one of the largest population per capita of elderly who are well-known for living with multiple generations on the same property if not the same household AND who have traditional body language mannerisms that involve lots of hand-to-face and lips-to-face contact. Bit less of all that in Cali.

Indeed, if anything you should be comparing Italy with New York. The data for Corona virus points to elderly in poor health and people with pre-existing illnesses being at risk. If you don’t agree please explain how Monaco with a very old but rather healthy population has seen one death so far and how come Bangladesh and Pakistan with a population of 300M+ have seen a total of 80 deaths.

Monaco has half the population of Walnut Creek, CA, a lot of them very affluent and not there much of the year.

Then there's the issue of

1. how was the testing done (IF AT ALL) 2. how accurate that test was (read up on PCR if you don't agree) 3. how the cause of death was determined.

I show you a CDC explanation for how to determine official cause of death from[1]:

""When reporting cause of death...use any information available, such as medical history, medical records, laboratory tests, an autopsy report, or other sources....best clinical judgement..."

In all cases variations of the flu are much worse and not worth crippling the US and global economy over.

If you have any other questions, feel free to ask someone like Dr. Burry who is much more qualified than I, at least, to answer such questions.

[1] https://t.co/sr5CuouckM?amp=1

Re: Governments Introduce Surveillance Under Veil of Coronavirus Control

#109

Post by soraminazuki »

krapp wrote: post #107
soraminazuki wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There always have been people who act selfishly. I'd bet you anything that it has also been this way when the Bill of Rights was written. Does that mean civil rights was a mistake? Absolutely not.

The same government that added the Second Amendment to the Constitution put down Shay's Rebellion, and when Thomas Jefferson wrote that "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure" in reference to that rebellion, he wasn't being complementary. The founding fathers believed in government, they weren't anarchists, they believed that governmen…

I think you're misunderstanding my intentions.

First, I'm not an anarchist and I'm not suggesting that the founding fathers were either. We all know that governments are necessary for society to function. Still, there must be limits to what the government can do, because after all, governments are run by humans and it'll corrupt eventually if you grant them absolute power. That's why many democratic countries have a constitution to limit governmental powers.

Second, I'm not siding with people undermining quarantine efforts (though I wouldn't agree with hanging them). But that's hardly an excuse for conducting mass surveillance, which this article is about. Mass surveillance simply has no place in a society governed by the rule of law.

Re: Governments Introduce Surveillance Under Veil of Coronavirus Control

#110

Post by simion314 »

SuoDuanDao wrote: post #104
simion314 wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think your assumptions might be wrong though, if I use the numbers from here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-r... and calculate for Italy I get 3600 car fatalities, and there are aprox 18000 deaths by covid with a lockdown on. Let me know if my numbers are wrong.

Italy's a bit of an outlier due to both average age and how they count covid deaths. If we look at Germany instead, we get 3.6K deaths by car (in 2016) vs 1.8K deaths from covid. There are all kinds of different assumptions about unconfirmed cases etc, but even in the most optimistic scenarios, it's roughly the same order of magnitude either way.

But don't ignore that Germany also treat the coivd like "not the flu" if Germany would do nothing like you suggest the numbers would be larger, to honestly support your point you need to find a country that did exactly what you want (nothing or just pray) and show that the mortality is better then car crashes when the pandemic is over.
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