Earlier quoted context omitted.
And I am entirely happy to revisit universal healthcare once employment arrangements are fixed, and not a moment sooner. It is an atomic commit, after all. This line of uncompromising thinking is not really constructive.
You want to pull out one of the few safety nets left for American citizens (employment benefits) without providing for healthcare needs. Sometimes compromise isn’t possible. Whomever comes with the most leverage wins. I acknowledge my side needs additional leverage. Maybe that’s COVID, maybe that’s the ensuing global recession.
Uber wants to redefine employment, labor groups are fighting back
101–110 of 162 posts
Re: Uber wants to redefine employment, labor groups are fighting back
#102Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Our current system of coupling healthcare and other life essential benefits with employment is broken. Is it not possible to purchase your own healthcare independently of an employer? And opt-out of employer healthcare? Or are only employers allowed to insure you? If it's a matter of scale could a buyer's union buy it bulk like an employer but not linked to your employment?
Buying healthcare as an individual is very expensive, since you're not buying in bulk. Some larger unions do have healthcare for members, but it's more of a bargaining chip to keep workers paying dues.
Re: Uber wants to redefine employment, labor groups are fighting back
#103There are 2 big problems with on-demand/ gig employment. #1 Our current system of coupling healthcare and other life essential benefits with employment is broken. It makes it difficult for people to work small jobs or switch jobs. In order for gig jobs to be viable, people need to be able to get survive a broken foot without going bankrupt. #2 Gig-style businesses tend to vastly underpay employees. The early claims t…
I'm not going to tackle #1 other than to say I do agree that health insurance shouldn't be provided by your employer. But for #2, you seem to be asserting that there is some method by which it is possible to determine that a particular salary/wage is "fair" and that "fair" wage must be mandated for all people. You've asserted that gig businesses are underpaying and yet lots of people continue to take those jobs. Are…
there is one and that is relatively simple, it's what people negotiate under symmetric information. The behaviour of some full-time uber drivers is simply irrational and that is effectively being exploited by companies like Uber.
If one includes the cost of operating and maintaining the vehicle, not to mention the depreciation, the risk of losing work if it actually breaks down and so on you're not arriving at a salary that is even remotely sane or competitive.
And sure you can say fuck them, they know best QED and so on but it's simply not sustainable. Just look at who has to pick up the cost during the corona crisis now because these people are effectively broke if they can't drive, it's everyone else.
In the name of flexibility we are loading social responsibility of regular employers onto the public because drivers overestimate the benefits and underestimate the risks and companies like Uber want to line their pockets.
Re: Uber wants to redefine employment, labor groups are fighting back
#104Earlier quoted context omitted.
Source? I've heard the opposite from some drivers.
Source: https://www.ridester.com/how-much-do-uber-drivers-make/ > Full-time UberX drivers can expect to earn nearly $590 per week after tips when working 40 hours in a week. Beyond the aforementioned factors — location, surge, and tips — weekly earnings can also be heavily impacted by the amount of trip requests you receive throughout a seven-day period. > Uber drivers are known to make slightly less than Lyft driver…
Re: Uber wants to redefine employment, labor groups are fighting back
#105Earlier quoted context omitted.
Source: https://www.ridester.com/how-much-do-uber-drivers-make/ > Full-time UberX drivers can expect to earn nearly $590 per week after tips when working 40 hours in a week. Beyond the aforementioned factors — location, surge, and tips — weekly earnings can also be heavily impacted by the amount of trip requests you receive throughout a seven-day period. > Uber drivers are known to make slightly less than Lyft driver…
It doesn't look like this takes depreciation or gas into account, but the site is like 75% advertisements so I might have missed it.
"These expenses include:
Insurance: This includes personal insurance and a rideshare or commercial insurance policy.
Car/lease payments: The amounts a driver pays to drive their vehicle. Drivers either own their own vehicles or lease one from Uber or a third-party provider.
Tolls, license, permit fees: Drivers pay for all of these fees. Passengers pay an added surcharge when drivers must incur toll fees.
Gas: Since drivers are considered independent contractors, they must pay for their own gas, and are not reimbursed.
Vehicle maintenance: Drivers are responsible for their own vehicle maintenance and upkeep. They will be reimbursed if a rider damages their vehicle, however."
Re: Uber wants to redefine employment, labor groups are fighting back
#106Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Gig-style businesses tend to vastly underpay employees. Low-productivity services tend to vastly underpay employees. This is to be expected. The question is whether one can have "gig"-like work that's more worthwhile than driving around for services that can't even make a decent profit and are just spending money they get from their VC funders.
Not "underpaid" as in "not a living wage", but underpaid because once the cost of equipment is factored in, people can end up being paid less than minimum wage. It's a wage floor loophole that should be closed. Though to be fair, rideshare isn't the only guilty industry.
Specifically, running their car into the ground doing driving.
Re: Uber wants to redefine employment, labor groups are fighting back
#107Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm not going to tackle #1 other than to say I do agree that health insurance shouldn't be provided by your employer. But for #2, you seem to be asserting that there is some method by which it is possible to determine that a particular salary/wage is "fair" and that "fair" wage must be mandated for all people. You've asserted that gig businesses are underpaying and yet lots of people continue to take those jobs. Are…
>there is some method by which it is possible to determine that a particular salary/wage is "fair" and that "fair" wage there is one and that is relatively simple, it's what people negotiate under symmetric information . The behaviour of some full-time uber drivers is simply irrational and that is effectively being exploited by companies like Uber. If one includes the cost of operating and maintaining the vehicle, no…
Irrational to you.
> If one includes the cost of operating and maintaining the vehicle, not to mention the depreciation, the risk of losing work if it actually breaks down and so on you're not arriving at a salary that is even remotely sane or competitive.
There are a lot of reasons why people still make the economic decision to drive on ridesharing platforms, even considering all of this. 1) If the car is a sunk cost (I.e. they would have owned the car, Uber or not), then it isn't accurate to include its cost in the equation. 2) Some people will happily trade-off the slightly less competitive pay in return for not having a boss and not having to clock into a job.
> Just look at who has to pick up the cost during the corona crisis now because these people are effectively broke if they can't drive, it's everyone else.
This is literally true everywhere in the world. Coronavirus is a once-in-a-generation black swan event, and most governments' responses have been mass shut-downs of the economy and forced unemployment. The taxpayers foot the bill for most workers, employee or not. "Employment" status would not have changed that.
> In the name of flexibility we are loading social responsibility of regular employers onto the public because drivers overestimate the benefits and underestimate the risks and companies like Uber want to line their pockets.
This is how safety nets work. In many developed countries, health insurance is decoupled from employees and taxpayers foot the bill. Would you not consider this an abrogation of responsibility of Danish/Canadian employers to provide benefits for their workers?
Re: Uber wants to redefine employment, labor groups are fighting back
#108Earlier quoted context omitted.
Protections? Tell that to all of the "full-time" workers that were laid off within days of the economic crash. If the money isn't coming into the business, it won't be going out of the business in paychecks. Period. You can wave your hands about magical "protections" but accounting is the real master. Gig work lets the businesses and the workers adapt weekly, daily or even hourly. Full-time work is onerous to startup…
> Protections? Tell that to all of the "full-time" workers that were laid off within days of the economic crash. Full time employees get benefits like unemployment, health insurance, COBRA, FICA contributions etc. And tons of other legal protections that contractors do not normally get.
They do not if the employer has fewer than 50 employees. Which is a huge portion of low paying jobs.
FICA contributions have nothing to do with full time employment, nor are they benefits people are eligible for before retirement age.
Re: Uber wants to redefine employment, labor groups are fighting back
#109Earlier quoted context omitted.
It doesn't look like this takes depreciation or gas into account, but the site is like 75% advertisements so I might have missed it.
From the article: "These expenses include: Insurance: This includes personal insurance and a rideshare or commercial insurance policy. Car/lease payments: The amounts a driver pays to drive their vehicle. Drivers either own their own vehicles or lease one from Uber or a third-party provider. Tolls, license, permit fees: Drivers pay for all of these fees. Passengers pay an added surcharge when drivers must incur toll…