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Uber wants to redefine employment, labor groups are fighting back

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Re: Uber wants to redefine employment, labor groups are fighting back

#71
Uber is arguing that there are two tiers of workers, with disparate levels of labor protections, and that there should be a third tier in the middle.

Let's say that employees are protected at Tier 1 and independent contractors are protected at Tier 3. Uber proposed a new category of worker with protections at Tier 2, and it claims its workers fit in that category.

I'm fine with the idea of a Tier 2, but I don't think Uber's workers fit in this category.

Uber claims that there are several things that set its workers apart from employees, but the chief things are the ability to set their own schedules and the ability to work for competing companies.

As to the scheduling, there are lots of employees out there who get to set/request their own schedules; it's just that with ride-sharing gigs, it happens at a more granular level. But while they are on the clock, they have very little control over how they get the job done, which is a key differentiator between employees and ICs.

As to working for competing companies, there are lots of employees out there who work more than one job; it's just that with ride-sharing gigs, it happens at a more granular level. But it's not as if any driver is working for Uber and Lyft simultaneously. They don't get paid by both platforms for the same fare. They can be on-call with both platforms at once, but they're only ever getting paid for one at a time. They're just going from one part-time job to another in more rapid intervals than in traditional part-time jobs.

In both cases, the distinction seems more like one of degree than of kind.

What I'd like to see is the creation of a Tier 2, and then phasing out Tier 3, so that independent contractors get Tier 2 labor protections. But Uber/Lyft's workers should be Tier 1 from the start, because they're employees.

Re: Uber wants to redefine employment, labor groups are fighting back

#72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Our current system of coupling healthcare and other life essential benefits with employment is broken. Is it not possible to purchase your own healthcare independently of an employer? And opt-out of employer healthcare? Or are only employers allowed to insure you? If it's a matter of scale could a buyer's union buy it bulk like an employer but not linked to your employment?

You can opt out of employer healthcare but it's not going to be in your interest to do so - they're not going to offer to give you cash in lieu.

> they're not going to offer to give you cash in lieu.

The ICHRA[1], which came into effect on January 2020 allows employers to do just that.

There's even a YC company that offers ICHRA functionality for employers[2].

[1] https://ichra.com/

[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22527102

Re: Uber wants to redefine employment, labor groups are fighting back

#73

There are 2 big problems with on-demand/ gig employment. #1 Our current system of coupling healthcare and other life essential benefits with employment is broken. It makes it difficult for people to work small jobs or switch jobs. In order for gig jobs to be viable, people need to be able to get survive a broken foot without going bankrupt. #2 Gig-style businesses tend to vastly underpay employees. The early claims t…

> There are 2 big problems with on-demand/ gig employment

The only developed country where they are a problem is the USA.

Other countries have healthcare regardless of employment status, and minimum wages high enough to live a good life ($19.48 AUD/hr in Australia, for example).

They can, and have been fixed elsewhere.

Re: Uber wants to redefine employment, labor groups are fighting back

#74
post #66

There are 2 big problems with on-demand/ gig employment. #1 Our current system of coupling healthcare and other life essential benefits with employment is broken. It makes it difficult for people to work small jobs or switch jobs. In order for gig jobs to be viable, people need to be able to get survive a broken foot without going bankrupt. #2 Gig-style businesses tend to vastly underpay employees. The early claims t…

I'm not going to tackle #1 other than to say I do agree that health insurance shouldn't be provided by your employer. But for #2, you seem to be asserting that there is some method by which it is possible to determine that a particular salary/wage is "fair" and that "fair" wage must be mandated for all people. You've asserted that gig businesses are underpaying and yet lots of people continue to take those jobs. Are…

> But for #2, you seem to be asserting that there is some method by which it is possible to determine that a particular salary/wage is "fair" and that "fair" wage must be mandated for all people.

We have a nationally agreed minimum wage.

Expecting that the average person doing a gig job would be able to earn that minimum wage plus expenses is not unreasonable. Since gig type employers, this base wage would need to be 50% higher than minimum wage to account for other expenses paid by employers. (employment taxes being the biggie)

Re: Uber wants to redefine employment, labor groups are fighting back

#75
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not going to tackle #1 other than to say I do agree that health insurance shouldn't be provided by your employer. But for #2, you seem to be asserting that there is some method by which it is possible to determine that a particular salary/wage is "fair" and that "fair" wage must be mandated for all people. You've asserted that gig businesses are underpaying and yet lots of people continue to take those jobs. Are…

> But for #2, you seem to be asserting that there is some method by which it is possible to determine that a particular salary/wage is "fair" and that "fair" wage must be mandated for all people. We have a nationally agreed minimum wage. Expecting that the average person doing a gig job would be able to earn that minimum wage plus expenses is not unreasonable. Since gig type employers, this base wage would need to be…

The national agreed minimum wage is $7.25/hour. Every Uber/Lyft driver earns well in excess of that.

Re: Uber wants to redefine employment, labor groups are fighting back

#76
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh, a significant portion of the first problem is solved by simply having single payer healthcare like most developed countries (except the States) has.

You do realize that in fact most developed countries actually have a healthcare system much like the US. Also most of the countries with a single payer health system have 3rd party health insurance that can be purchased. A true one payor only plan is the exception not the rule.

> You do realize that in fact most developed countries actually have a healthcare system much like the US.

You're gonna have to work a lot harder than you are here to make this point pass muster. It's pretty blatantly untrue.

Yes, supplemental insurance is often a thing that exists. It's generally nothing like the US system's insurance though.

Re: Uber wants to redefine employment, labor groups are fighting back

#77

There are 2 big problems with on-demand/ gig employment. #1 Our current system of coupling healthcare and other life essential benefits with employment is broken. It makes it difficult for people to work small jobs or switch jobs. In order for gig jobs to be viable, people need to be able to get survive a broken foot without going bankrupt. #2 Gig-style businesses tend to vastly underpay employees. The early claims t…

on #2, someone told me how much they made and I could not understand why anyone would do it - the additional wear and tear on your vehicle and depreciation did not seem to leave a net profit after the first month incentives/bonuses that all the gig employment places were using at that time (you have to be building enough of a profit margin to buy another vehicle at some point - just keeping your head above water seems like a waste of time driving instead of anything else to me personally but maybe I am speaking from a position of too much privilege).

Re: Uber wants to redefine employment, labor groups are fighting back

#78
post #47
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh, a significant portion of the first problem is solved by simply having single payer healthcare like most developed countries (except the States) has.

Or we could simply remove the tax break for employer based healthcare and let the market readjust.

> remove the tax break for employer based healthcare

This is a big part of the problem, but I don't think it would fix everything by a long shot.

Re: Uber wants to redefine employment, labor groups are fighting back

#79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Protections? Tell that to all of the "full-time" workers that were laid off within days of the economic crash. If the money isn't coming into the business, it won't be going out of the business in paychecks. Period. You can wave your hands about magical "protections" but accounting is the real master. Gig work lets the businesses and the workers adapt weekly, daily or even hourly. Full-time work is onerous to startup…

> Protections? Tell that to all of the "full-time" workers that were laid off within days of the economic crash. Full time employees get benefits like unemployment, health insurance, COBRA, FICA contributions etc. And tons of other legal protections that contractors do not normally get.

Unemployment though is structured as an insurance. Those employees pay unemployment premiums. There is no reason (other than a sloppy tax code) why the same thing couldn't be asked of gig workers (who do have to pay tax on their earnings anyway).

Re: Uber wants to redefine employment, labor groups are fighting back

#80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Protections? Tell that to all of the "full-time" workers that were laid off within days of the economic crash. If the money isn't coming into the business, it won't be going out of the business in paychecks. Period. You can wave your hands about magical "protections" but accounting is the real master. Gig work lets the businesses and the workers adapt weekly, daily or even hourly. Full-time work is onerous to startup…

> Protections? Tell that to all of the "full-time" workers that were laid off within days of the economic crash. Full time employees get benefits like unemployment, health insurance, COBRA, FICA contributions etc. And tons of other legal protections that contractors do not normally get.

> Full time employees get benefits like unemployment, health insurance, COBRA, FICA contributions etc.

A huge part of the problem is that full-time employees get benefits like health insurance and COBRA. They're all band-aids on top of one cardinal sin: that benefits are tied to employment.

We don't really talk about employees receiving car insurance benefits, or food benefits, or housing benefits.

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