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The Man Who Got No Whammies (2015)

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Re: The Man Who Got No Whammies (2015)

#31
post #17
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Michael’s run on PYL is often called a “scandal” as if he cheated. The only scandal was that CBS tried like hell to figure out a way to deny him his winnings.

Where do you fall on the Phil Ivey edge sorting incident?

No OP, but IMO the Ivey incident can be distinguished because he tricked the croupier into acting on his behalf, whereas Larson just observed normal behaviour and didn't seek to influence it (beyond normal play of the game). Indeed, I would say the Supreme Count (in Ivey) made reference to this distinction:

> It may be that it would not be cheating if a player spotted that some cards had a detectably different back from others, and took advantage of that observation, but Mr Ivey did much more than observe; he took positive steps to fix the deck.

Whether this means Ivey shouldn't be paid is more debatable IMO. On one hand, he didn't hide his actions and the casino in some sense accepted them into the game, nor did he tamper with the cards. On the other, he deceived the casino into acting outside the normal and intended rules of the game and in in his favour, which, regardless of the means used to do it, can be seen as cheating/dishonest.

I'd come down on the side of the latter, but it's not a particularly firm opinion. I can envision cases why I might feel differently, such as if someone _genuinely_ asked for the cards to be rotated due to superstition then _later_ realised that the cards are aligned as such (though I'm not quite how you'd show that was the likely order of events).

Re: The Man Who Got No Whammies (2015)

#32
post #8

The article keeps making it sound like he met his comeuppance, even as they finally reveal that he ran off with $3M and died of natural causes before he was caught. They never seem to substantiate the pervasive tragic tone. The whole whole thing reminds me of the existentialist treatment of the "Touch of Death" in Men Who Stare at Goats ... His schemes were often successful, but ultimately meaningless because death c…

Yeah, it doesn't really seem like he had a downfall, besides dying, which isn't exactly an unexpected event for any person..

Well, dying at the age of 50 to throat cancer is not exactly on my list of expectations for life.

Re: The Man Who Got No Whammies (2015)

#33
post #9

>"He didn’t understand the value of good, hard, honest work," his older brother, James, later bemoaned. "He thought those people were fools." I wouldn't call people like that fools, and pretty certainly the world would fall to pieces without them. That said, I don't think I can really blame anyone too much for not valuing good, hard, honest work in this world where many people are simply born rich and many others bec…

What is good, hard, honest work, exactly? I certainly work hard, but is it honest? I'm not sure. I certainly don't intentionally go around breaking all the rules I can, but I do try and use my brain to figure out every possible loophole and advantage I can. I don't think exploiting loopholes is dishonest, but I'm sure some would disagree. For example, when playing board or card games, I always try and discover some d…

> I don't think exploiting loopholes is dishonest

What is "dishonest"? It's a word. That's all; just a word. The meaning it has is based solely on the context in which you use it. There is not an ontological reality for the meanings of words. It means what you want it to mean.

We could argue what is and what is not dishonest. We could go back to the etymology of the word. We could see how it came to be. We could see how most people have used it. We could argue what meaning would be least surprising for most people. But in the end, when you utter the word "dishonest", you have a meaning in mind and, for you, the word has that meaning.

In fact, this is just the same as every other game you play. It's just a loophole. It's an advantage you can hold over others. You spoke. It is your meaning. I can misinterpret what you said, but it is forever my fault for not understanding your meaning. I can argue until the cows come home that I don't think it should mean what you want it to mean, but it's useless because the sentence you spoke is meaningless unless it has the meaning you intended it to have.

Most of your post is a tautology - I do not think it is "wrong" because I do not define "wrong" as being this. Discussion is not necessary.

> but I'm sure some would disagree

And this is where life gets interesting. "Some would disagree". Isn't that how games are supposed to be played? With others? Isn't the goal of a game to enhance everyone's well being, not just one "winner". Aren't the rules there to coax the maximum possible extraction of fun for all involved? Wouldn't be an extreme debasement of this concept if we abused the intent of the rules simply because we could?

You can do what you want, but don't be surprised if I have more fun than you even if I don't "win" ;-)

Re: The Man Who Got No Whammies (2015)

#35
post #32
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, it doesn't really seem like he had a downfall, besides dying, which isn't exactly an unexpected event for any person..

Well, dying at the age of 50 to throat cancer is not exactly on my list of expectations for life.

According to https://www.ssa.gov/oact/STATS/table4c6.html#fn1 The probability of being 49 and dying within the year is about a half a percent. So it's not that uncommon an outcome.

Re: The Man Who Got No Whammies (2015)

#36
post #28
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not OP, but Ivey didn't touch the cards or use any kind of technology to win. That's not cheating. He should be paid.

Is there a set of people between “Casino might have a point and certainly it’s their right to pursue the issue in court” and “Ivey found a loophole in your system, suck it up you cry babies.”?

I don't know, but it's likely they also freerolled him. As in, they decided not to pay him if he won, but let him keep winning in case he lost. He could easily have lost a few million, his edge wasn't that big.

I think they're the sleaze.

Anyway the matter is settled, not in Ivey's favor. The fact that Ivey isn't in prison should settle the debate over the legality of what he did.

Re: The Man Who Got No Whammies (2015)

#37
post #9

>"He didn’t understand the value of good, hard, honest work," his older brother, James, later bemoaned. "He thought those people were fools." I wouldn't call people like that fools, and pretty certainly the world would fall to pieces without them. That said, I don't think I can really blame anyone too much for not valuing good, hard, honest work in this world where many people are simply born rich and many others bec…

What is good, hard, honest work, exactly? I certainly work hard, but is it honest? I'm not sure. I certainly don't intentionally go around breaking all the rules I can, but I do try and use my brain to figure out every possible loophole and advantage I can. I don't think exploiting loopholes is dishonest, but I'm sure some would disagree. For example, when playing board or card games, I always try and discover some d…

Games should be played so everyone playing has fun. These angry people were right and you were fooling yourself. Think of it as a short-term pleasure instead of long-time winning friends.

Re: The Man Who Got No Whammies (2015)

#38
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is good, hard, honest work, exactly? I certainly work hard, but is it honest? I'm not sure. I certainly don't intentionally go around breaking all the rules I can, but I do try and use my brain to figure out every possible loophole and advantage I can. I don't think exploiting loopholes is dishonest, but I'm sure some would disagree. For example, when playing board or card games, I always try and discover some d…

> I don't think exploiting loopholes is dishonest What is "dishonest"? It's a word. That's all; just a word. The meaning it has is based solely on the context in which you use it. There is not an ontological reality for the meanings of words. It means what you want it to mean. We could argue what is and what is not dishonest. We could go back to the etymology of the word. We could see how it came to be. We could see…

>There is not an ontological reality for the meanings of words. It means what you want it to mean.

Obviously there is a possible range of meaning for a word for a culture at any point in time, but there is in the end a limit to what the word dishonest can mean in our present context. This is why I do not expect to get served a cheddar and jalapeno omelet when I walk into a funeral home and order a dishonest.

Re: The Man Who Got No Whammies (2015)

#39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think exploiting loopholes is dishonest What is "dishonest"? It's a word. That's all; just a word. The meaning it has is based solely on the context in which you use it. There is not an ontological reality for the meanings of words. It means what you want it to mean. We could argue what is and what is not dishonest. We could go back to the etymology of the word. We could see how it came to be. We could see…

>There is not an ontological reality for the meanings of words. It means what you want it to mean. Obviously there is a possible range of meaning for a word for a culture at any point in time, but there is in the end a limit to what the word dishonest can mean in our present context. This is why I do not expect to get served a cheddar and jalapeno omelet when I walk into a funeral home and order a dishonest.

What I was perhaps clumsily saying is that no matter what argument I make to say that I think exploiting loopholes is dishonest, there will be an argument based on a different definition of the word that will refute my argument. Any min-maxer worth their salt will surely use that approach and so no meaningful dialog is possible on that front.

Re: The Man Who Got No Whammies (2015)

#40
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is good, hard, honest work, exactly? I certainly work hard, but is it honest? I'm not sure. I certainly don't intentionally go around breaking all the rules I can, but I do try and use my brain to figure out every possible loophole and advantage I can. I don't think exploiting loopholes is dishonest, but I'm sure some would disagree. For example, when playing board or card games, I always try and discover some d…

>For example, when playing board or card games, I always try and discover some dominant, completely broken strategy that is definitely not in the "spirit" of the game. (...) isn't this how games are supposed to be played? IMHO, there are 2 necessary criterion on whether or not a game should be played in a certain manner: 1. Is it fun? 2. Will people continue to play with me if play this way? The first is obvious, don…

These two criteria are not sufficient when winning the games offer life-changing sums of money and prestige.

A star NFL quarterback with a $100 million contract may well still play the game even if it's unfun and if people don't want to play with them.

More generally, competitive games quite often degenerate into a "whatever is within the rules" mindset, and that's perfectly fine.

Since this is top of mind right now, and since perhaps someone out there may have not read it yet, it's worth linking to David Sirlin's "Playing To Win" - http://www.sirlin.net/ptw - the book is about competitive fighting arcade games like Street Fighter but it covers many other games and the philosophy is enthralling.

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