Someone is stealing your life (1990) • Hacker News Board

Re: Someone is stealing your life (1990)

#41

Post by grammaton » Wed, Mar 02, 2011, 5:43 PM UTC

lionhearted wrote: post #3

> On the other hand - or so they say - you're free, and if you don't like your job you can pursue happiness by starting a business of your very own, by becoming an "independent" entrepreneur. But you're only as independent as your credit rating. And to compete in the business community, you'll find yourself having to treat others - your employees - as much like slaves as you can get away with. The whole piece is like…

Good for you that you've been able to do well starting a business.

Guess what? Your personal situation is not applicable to everyone - or, for that matter, even most people.

"But working stiffs can't afford houses now, fewer communities are clean, none are safe, and your kid's prospects are worse."

"Compare this to what my employer gets: If the company is successful, he (it's usually a he) gets a standard of living beyond my wildest dreams, including what I would consider fantastic protection for his family, and a world of access that I can only pitifully mimic by changing channels on my TV."

These are legitimate observations, not mere complaining.

Re: Someone is stealing your life (1990)

#42

Post by rgraham » Wed, Mar 02, 2011, 5:43 PM UTC

jonnathanson wrote: post #11

lionhearted wrote: post #3

> On the other hand - or so they say - you're free, and if you don't like your job you can pursue happiness by starting a business of your very own, by becoming an "independent" entrepreneur. But you're only as independent as your credit rating. And to compete in the business community, you'll find yourself having to treat others - your employees - as much like slaves as you can get away with. The whole piece is like…

Yes. It takes effort, and it also takes balls (for lack of a more gender-neutral and appropriate word). If you want to get out of the drudgery and soul-hemorrage of the rat race, then you need to be prepared for the risk. Most people aren't. They do the mental math, figure that they need the salary or the stability or the medical coverage too much to risk it, and they take the blue pill. They resign themselves to the…

Courage, bravery, bravado, boldness, gusto, audacity, pluck, fearlessness, risk-tolerance, temerity, tenacity, fortitude, nerve, or stoutheartedness work for you?

It is indeed a choice. The consequences of reversing that choice get much more complex as you gain responsibilities in life. Ultimately, however, your life is on you. No one else can care like you do.

Re: Someone is stealing your life (1990)

#43

Post by lionhearted » Wed, Mar 02, 2011, 5:44 PM UTC

pygy_ wrote: post #35

lionhearted wrote: post #3

> On the other hand - or so they say - you're free, and if you don't like your job you can pursue happiness by starting a business of your very own, by becoming an "independent" entrepreneur. But you're only as independent as your credit rating. And to compete in the business community, you'll find yourself having to treat others - your employees - as much like slaves as you can get away with. The whole piece is like…

You're attacking the messenger, but you fail to address his core argument which boils down to Marx's criticism of capitalism (the fact that workers don't own the production means is unfair). "Just start your business" as a mean to all ends doesn't scale. Your last paragraph also seems to ignore that, for some people, just getting by takes (sometimes a lot of) effort. You may be clueless at some key point in your life…

> You're attacking the messenger, but you fail to address his core argument

I'm not attacking him. His message places a lot of blame externally. That leads to not looking for solutions and building a better life.

Marxism isn't the solution. I've been to a lot of the Marxist/ex-Marxist countries, and they're all worse off than similar neighbors who didn't endure Marxism.

But that's not the big point. The big point is that placing the blame externally kills off your ability to solve problems yourself.

Re: Someone is stealing your life (1990)

#44

Post by georgieporgie » Wed, Mar 02, 2011, 5:46 PM UTC

pdx wrote: post #30

rwl wrote: post #26

The upshot of this piece is much more significant than the comments here have been willing to admit. Yes, you can write the author off as having a whiny, blame-others attitude. Yes, you can say that if he would just take matters into his own hands, the path of entrepreneurship is hard but ultimately rewarding. And maybe that's right. But if you say that, then you have already accepted a premise that the piece is call…

Why should we structure our society so that, for the average person, self-sacrifice is the only way to survive, much less get ahead? So, we should structure our society so that you can get ahead without sacrifice? Do you get to be ahead of me or do I get to be ahead of you? I just want to be clear which of us gets ahead of the other one, what with neither one of us sacrificing anything.

Do you get to be ahead of me or do I get to be ahead of you?

You could get ahead of where you were last year.

Re: Someone is stealing your life (1990)

#45

Post by rgraham » Wed, Mar 02, 2011, 5:49 PM UTC

rwl wrote: post #26

The upshot of this piece is much more significant than the comments here have been willing to admit. Yes, you can write the author off as having a whiny, blame-others attitude. Yes, you can say that if he would just take matters into his own hands, the path of entrepreneurship is hard but ultimately rewarding. And maybe that's right. But if you say that, then you have already accepted a premise that the piece is call…

"But if you say that, then you have already accepted a premise that the piece is calling into question, namely: why should that be the choice that everyone faces? Why should the only options be self-sacrifice"

It seems to me that this line of thinking is ultimately just asking for the removal of choice entirely. If you 'get ahead' without any self-sacrifice then you either managed this solely through an act of wishing or entirely on the backs of others. Is a world without choice preferable? Is it meaningful to ask the question when reality is clearly otherwise?

Re: Someone is stealing your life (1990)

#46

Post by dstein » Wed, Mar 02, 2011, 5:52 PM UTC

I wonder what this fellow would have thought about work 100 years ago or more. The amount of "slavery" that a person has to do today to sustain himself has never, in the history of mankind, ever been lower than it is today. We should be so lucky.

Re: Someone is stealing your life (1990)

#47

Post by tomrod » Wed, Mar 02, 2011, 5:52 PM UTC

georgieporgie wrote: post #40

edw519 wrote: post #14

Prime quote from the other side, "Someone is Stealing My Money": "I pay you to work 8 hours and you're on Hacker News for 6 of them. Close that browser and get back to work."

I've never understood how wasting time on the job can possibly be termed 'theft'. It's irresponsible and a failure to fulfill expectations, but it's not theft. (btw, I also don't see employers as stealing life from employees)

Theft of labor resources, if you're salary non-exempt and reading HN is not in your job description :-)

Re: Someone is stealing your life (1990)

#48

Post by georgieporgie » Wed, Mar 02, 2011, 5:54 PM UTC

rick888 wrote: post #37

rwl wrote: post #26

The upshot of this piece is much more significant than the comments here have been willing to admit. Yes, you can write the author off as having a whiny, blame-others attitude. Yes, you can say that if he would just take matters into his own hands, the path of entrepreneurship is hard but ultimately rewarding. And maybe that's right. But if you say that, then you have already accepted a premise that the piece is call…

"But if you say that, then you have already accepted a premise that the piece is calling into question, namely: why should that be the choice that everyone faces?" Do you have an alternative? Humans have tried many different methods over many thousands of years and our current system is the result of trying and failing many, many times. It's the most fair and allows pretty much anyone to be successful. Life is diffic…

Do you have an alternative?

I'm not the parent poster, but I suggest that co-ops have led to greater employee satisfaction. There are also non-co-op companies where employees all have a say in business decisions, and they have done well and have great employee satisfaction and retention.

The current (big) business climate dictates that the sole purpose of a company is to maximize shareholder value at all times, at all costs. I suggest that the purpose of a company is to provide value to all stakeholders, and find a healthy balance.

Re: Someone is stealing your life (1990)

#49

Post by pygy_ » Wed, Mar 02, 2011, 5:57 PM UTC

lionhearted wrote: post #43

pygy_ wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're attacking the messenger, but you fail to address his core argument which boils down to Marx's criticism of capitalism (the fact that workers don't own the production means is unfair). "Just start your business" as a mean to all ends doesn't scale. Your last paragraph also seems to ignore that, for some people, just getting by takes (sometimes a lot of) effort. You may be clueless at some key point in your life…

> You're attacking the messenger, but you fail to address his core argument I'm not attacking him. His message places a lot of blame externally. That leads to not looking for solutions and building a better life. Marxism isn't the solution. I've been to a lot of the Marxist/ex-Marxist countries, and they're all worse off than similar neighbors who didn't endure Marxism. But that's not the big point. The big point is…

> I'm not attacking him. His message places a lot of blame externally.

True. It's probably a matter of seeing where form ends and where meaning begins (which is of course based on a false dichotomy :-).

> The big point is that placing the blame externally kills off your ability to solve problems yourself.

That's your big point (and I agree with you on that).

His point is a reformulation of a key facet of Marx's analytical economic theory, with which I agree. I wouldn't however ever think of advocating any of Marx's proposed solutions, which took out the human nature out of the equation, for great disaster.

Re: Someone is stealing your life (1990)

#50

Post by tomrod » Wed, Mar 02, 2011, 5:57 PM UTC

georgieporgie wrote: post #48

rick888 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"But if you say that, then you have already accepted a premise that the piece is calling into question, namely: why should that be the choice that everyone faces?" Do you have an alternative? Humans have tried many different methods over many thousands of years and our current system is the result of trying and failing many, many times. It's the most fair and allows pretty much anyone to be successful. Life is diffic…

Do you have an alternative? I'm not the parent poster, but I suggest that co-ops have led to greater employee satisfaction. There are also non-co-op companies where employees all have a say in business decisions, and they have done well and have great employee satisfaction and retention. The current (big) business climate dictates that the sole purpose of a company is to maximize shareholder value at all times, at al…

The quick, easy, and non-communist way to do this is to have the opportunity for employees to become shareholders through purchase of premium stock and bonds.

This solves the moral hazard problem quite well.