Universities forced to face addiction to foreign students’ money • Hacker News Board

Re: Universities forced to face addiction to foreign students’ money

#161

Post by smt88 » Tue, Apr 07, 2020, 2:05 PM UTC

8f2ab37a-ed6c wrote: post #23

smt88 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had the same attitude as you, but many of the wealthy, Chinese-raised students at my local (prestigious, private) university can't speak basic English. The school then has to choose to either fail the student or ignore their cheating. With a $250k incentive to choose the former, that's what they choose.

Has this been documented anywhere, by the way? You'd think that there would be more reporting around this topic.

I have read articles about it, but it's very hard to Google for it. It would be hard to research, too, because the schools are complicit. They want these students to get their rubber-stamp diplomas for $250k+ and then leave the US. There would need to be some huge third-party investigation with subpoena powers over the schools to uncover all the fraud. So for now, it's anecdata that seems to ring true for anyone I talk to who gets near universities.

Re: Universities forced to face addiction to foreign students’ money

#162

Post by watwut » Tue, Apr 07, 2020, 2:09 PM UTC

Traster wrote: post #75

neumann wrote: post #13

I work at a University in Australia and have been on both sides of academic and professional. This unravelling was on the horizon for everybody, maybe not so soon, but definitely in the viewport. In an effort to drive up income streams there has been a slow erosion of Australian education (more at some universities than others) to cater for the international (Chinese and Indian predominantly) market. There are all so…

This reminds me of a New Statesmen article about UK universities[1], which point out university attendance has gone up 500% since 1990 and First class honours went from being awarded to 7% to being awarded to 29% of students. Either universities figured out a way of being 4x as effective teaching 5x as many students (with measurements for average intake attainment basically flat) - which would be a miracle. Or the ma…

If there are prestigious employers who favor first class honor and the other school gives more of them, then the other school will get more students into those prestigious jobs. Meaning every school have to give them out just to compete.

Same with grades and everything. Once student having it has advantage outside, the school that is more strict will have more students loosing those advantages.

And as for quality of education and knowledge, I honestly don't have a sense that careful knowledgeable thinkers would be favored by typical management.

Re: Universities forced to face addiction to foreign students’ money

#163

Post by jackpirate » Tue, Apr 07, 2020, 2:10 PM UTC

aikinai wrote: post #136

save_ferris wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> no longer seem to advertise their primary mission as education, but as providing the “college experience.” This was already really noticeable when I enrolled in undergrad 12 years ago at a large public university. I think part of it has been driven by student demand for more parental oversight, but I also think the marketing is what got so many students to take out debt in the first place. So many of my undergrad c…

I think it is the best four years of life for many (maybe most?) Americans at least. But I think that speaks to exactly what people are saying in this thread. It's not about education anymore, it's evolved into a four-year time-of-your-life experience that through a fluke of history gets supported by guaranteed loans.

I think it is the best four years of life for many (maybe most?) Americans at least

This cannot be true as most Americans do not go to college. Of those that do, most do not do it the "traditional" timeframe of 4 contiguous years after high school.

For example, only 36% of 25-30 year olds have a college degree: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Educational_attainment_in_the_...

Re: Universities forced to face addiction to foreign students’ money

#164

Post by mywittyname » Tue, Apr 07, 2020, 2:11 PM UTC

duxup wrote: post #145

washadjeffmad wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Something I've noticed is that universities in the US no longer seem to advertise their primary mission as education, but as providing the "college experience". Brochures are rife with amenities and activities like you're picking out a resort or extended summer camp where you can safely figure out who you are, make friends, and be protected until you're set free, job-pass in hand. These advertisements are also primar…

>but as providing the "college experience". Schools maybe didn't say it as blatantly, but I think that's been a/the selling point since ... you had schools you went away to. I'm not convinced a huge % of students value outcomes until ... it is time to face them. If they did I think I'd see a lot different choices by students. That's not recrimination as much as a recognition about how folks make these kinds of decisi…

I get the impression that universities were originally supposed to be a four-year vacation for the children of aristocrats. They spent their formative years locked away with other wealthy children, forming political connections, while learning about culture and playing games. Then, somewhere along the line, sciences became more integral and universities became a platform for wealthy people to gain experience and prestige in these new fields.

Re: Universities forced to face addiction to foreign students’ money

#165

Post by thisisnico » Tue, Apr 07, 2020, 2:12 PM UTC

ludamad wrote: post #143

seeTheAstroturf wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only thing I can say I learned from Engineering school is math. 4 years of my career completely changed my mind about what Engineering is. I didn't know I would be solving problems. Good that they teach math, but there's a giant disconnect between academia and industry.

In some ways, there is 'good disconnect' if the disconnect is that the academia merely informs your thinking, not your immediate actions. It shows that you learned the fundamentals in an insular environment that doesn't muddle them. If there is full disconnect, that is rough though

I Live in the Border city of Windsor to Detroit. We have a University that had been hailed for its engineering program. What I'm hearing from students/employers (big 3) is that the entire program is mostly mathematics, they have no usable engineering skills to begin work in the field because of minimal labs, and methods. Almost no CAD work/design control systems etc. They're so far behind the curve it's like they ignore that computers have automated so much of the math that they are teaching. More community college engineering graduates are getting jobs at the big 3 due to actually obtaining skills needed to do the job through labs and education that's on par with today's engineering.

Re: Universities forced to face addiction to foreign students’ money

#166

Post by jstewartmobile » Tue, Apr 07, 2020, 2:15 PM UTC

Good. For every elite university performing actual "brain drain," there are a dozen others importing a fifth-column of mediocrities for cash and prizes.

Now corporate espionage is off the charts, and our elite are too short-term and rootless to care about the long-term consequences.

Re: Universities forced to face addiction to foreign students’ money

#167

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Apr 07, 2020, 2:15 PM UTC

lucozade wrote: post #50

nvarsj wrote: post #47

This is a problem in the UK too. The independent school (aka private school) sector has seen fees double or triple over the last 10-20 years. This is largely driven by rich foreign students, primarily Chinese, sending their kids to these schools. I don't particularly regret these bastions of class division destroying their reputation for money, but there are a lot of knock on effects. Independent schools used to be o…

> I have to subsidize education for the very rich or rich foreign nationals Not a penny of your tax goes to subsidising their education. The charitable status of private schools means that the money used for their education isn't taxed twice. I agree that private schooling tends to exacerbate divisions. The majority of state school provision in the UK is atrocious. I have more concern that very little is being done a…

[deleted]

Re: Universities forced to face addiction to foreign students’ money

#168

Post by foldr » Tue, Apr 07, 2020, 2:19 PM UTC

red_admiral wrote: post #115

foldr wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OP is talking about schools, not universities.

Where independent schools are leading the way, universities are following. There was an ongoing political debate on some of the news sites before everything got taken over by coronavirus: independent schools have charity status (which includes exemption from business rates tax that goes back to the local area) because historically they were indeed typical examples of charities. For example: > "Eton College was founde…

HPSquared was talking about international students (effectively) subsidising scholarships for UK students in private schools. As far as I know, there is little evidence of any such "trickle down" effect at present, or reason to think that there will be one in the future. That is, it is unlikely that a typical British student at a private school will be paying lower fees owing to the contributions of their international classmates. I think you are going off on a tangent.

Re: Universities forced to face addiction to foreign students’ money

#169

Post by nradov » Tue, Apr 07, 2020, 2:20 PM UTC

washadjeffmad wrote: post #95

neumann wrote: post #13

I work at a University in Australia and have been on both sides of academic and professional. This unravelling was on the horizon for everybody, maybe not so soon, but definitely in the viewport. In an effort to drive up income streams there has been a slow erosion of Australian education (more at some universities than others) to cater for the international (Chinese and Indian predominantly) market. There are all so…

Something I've noticed is that universities in the US no longer seem to advertise their primary mission as education, but as providing the "college experience". Brochures are rife with amenities and activities like you're picking out a resort or extended summer camp where you can safely figure out who you are, make friends, and be protected until you're set free, job-pass in hand. These advertisements are also primar…

The "college experience" is essentially now a way of indoctrinating students into a shared set of upper-middle class values and behaviors. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but it's orthogonal to actual education.

Re: Universities forced to face addiction to foreign students’ money

#170

Post by mywittyname » Tue, Apr 07, 2020, 2:20 PM UTC

throwaway32120 wrote: post #111

sago wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Universities should not be responsible for both education and assessment. All of this disappears in a moment if those two are separate. But universities would resist that kicking and screaming to high heaven. Because it would not only undermine their 'great institution' claims, but educational routes that aren't universities would trump them (in terms of cost for attainment) in very short order.

Very much this. Removing the monopoly universities have on the (fairly questionable) credentials used for employment would go along way toward solving many of these issues. Most of the discussion about the problem with universities seem to dance around the core problem.

I doubt it's a coincidence that programs which require a third-party qualification exam tend to be more rigorous. E.g., engineering, nursing, medicine, law, etc.