Providence Lost: The Rise and Fall of Cromwell’s Protectorate
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Re: Providence Lost: The Rise and Fall of Cromwell’s Protectorate
#2Wow, what a truly offensive article. Firstly speaking as an Irish person, the dismissive tone here is outrageous:
"And later in the century, as one phase of the conflict between England and Ireland followed another, the sins of Cromwell and his army in rooting out the supporters (both Catholic and Protestant) of the Stuarts in Ireland were used regularly as a stick with which to beat the English, albeit well over 300 years later, and as further proof that the Irish have perhaps the longest memories in the world."
For some historical context, start here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Drogheda
And as for the conclusion:
"The growth of British power and prosperity in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries was in great measure built on those secure foundations. Cromwell’s part in leading the great change of culture was absolutely fundamental to that."
So Cromwell helped build the foundations of the British Empire, and that's a "good thing"? I don't know where to start, consider me triggered ;-)
Re: Providence Lost: The Rise and Fall of Cromwell’s Protectorate
#3> albeit well over 300 years later, and as further proof that the Irish have perhaps the longest memories in the world.
Oh right. At what point do historical figures get a free pass on bringing up their bad doings?
And by bad doings, we're talking deaths in the hundreds of thousands, enforced slavery etc.
Re: Providence Lost: The Rise and Fall of Cromwell’s Protectorate
#4Wow, what a truly offensive article. Firstly speaking as an Irish person, the dismissive tone here is outrageous: "And later in the century, as one phase of the conflict between England and Ireland followed another, the sins of Cromwell and his army in rooting out the supporters (both Catholic and Protestant) of the Stuarts in Ireland were used regularly as a stick with which to beat the English, albeit well over 300…
> I don't know where to start, consider me triggered ;-)
Ha! You and me both. As an Irish lad in the UK, one of the funniest things I still encounter is republicans (British ones!) who hold him up as a hero. You really have to wonder at times.
Re: Providence Lost: The Rise and Fall of Cromwell’s Protectorate
#5Wow, what a truly offensive article. Firstly speaking as an Irish person, the dismissive tone here is outrageous: "And later in the century, as one phase of the conflict between England and Ireland followed another, the sins of Cromwell and his army in rooting out the supporters (both Catholic and Protestant) of the Stuarts in Ireland were used regularly as a stick with which to beat the English, albeit well over 300…
> I don't know where to start, consider me triggered ;-) Ha! You and me both. As an Irish lad in the UK, one of the funniest things I still encounter is republicans (British ones!) who hold him up as a hero. You really have to wonder at times.
I would love to see Britain become a republic some day for their benefit (up to them of course to vote on that), but agree they need a better hero.
Re: Providence Lost: The Rise and Fall of Cromwell’s Protectorate
#6> albeit well over 300 years later, and as further proof that the Irish have perhaps the longest memories in the world. Oh right. At what point do historical figures get a free pass on bringing up their bad doings? And by bad doings, we're talking deaths in the hundreds of thousands, enforced slavery etc.
Yeah, I am Irish and I think that patriotism is a disease.
But even so, historical figures who have reputations for ethnic cleansing and genocide [1] should not be forgotten OR forgiven.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cromwellian_conquest_of_Irelan...
Re: Providence Lost: The Rise and Fall of Cromwell’s Protectorate
#7Wow, what a truly offensive article. Firstly speaking as an Irish person, the dismissive tone here is outrageous: "And later in the century, as one phase of the conflict between England and Ireland followed another, the sins of Cromwell and his army in rooting out the supporters (both Catholic and Protestant) of the Stuarts in Ireland were used regularly as a stick with which to beat the English, albeit well over 300…
Indeed - Cromwell wasn't an aberration, he was the start of the occupation of Ireland with all the usual brutality of colonialism, and the Orange Order will happily bring him out as a "stick" in the other direction.
Re: Providence Lost: The Rise and Fall of Cromwell’s Protectorate
#8Cromwell really does have a lingering propaganda support, doesn't he?
The UK is one of a very small number of countries to have deliberately restored its monarchy after a revolution and period of parliamentary government, and the reason for that is that Cromwellian government was even worse for a lot of people. A modern analogue might be the Iranian Revolution; congratulations on getting rid of the puppet monarch controlled by overseas interests, now dancing is banned. Or in the case of Cromwell, Christmas. https://historicengland.org.uk/listing/what-is-designation/h...
The UK does an extremely bad job of teaching its historial "religious" conflict, which was rarely about doctrine so much as temporal power-politics.
Re: Providence Lost: The Rise and Fall of Cromwell’s Protectorate
#9Cromwell really does have a lingering propaganda support, doesn't he? The UK is one of a very small number of countries to have deliberately restored its monarchy after a revolution and period of parliamentary government, and the reason for that is that Cromwellian government was even worse for a lot of people. A modern analogue might be the Iranian Revolution; congratulations on getting rid of the puppet monarch con…
The article says things got worse not because cromwell was worse than Charles 1, but rather he inherited the mess caused by charles' policies and a country broken by civil war. Naturally it was worse for many people (specially Irish). But I wonder what would happen if characters like Cromwell weren't there at that time, Charles was allowed to continue bypassing parliament and ruling like a tyrant, and Britain turned into an absolute monarchy like France and Prussia. I'm not defending Cromwell. But I think if he was an evil, perhaps it was a necessary evil.
About Iran, while it's absolutely not a perfect country, I can not agree that things got worse for average Iranian after revolution. Iranians dead from starvation was a common scenery in Tehran's street during shah. Things did get worse for a tiny ruling-westernised-urban elite, who were forced to go into exile and now vocal in western countries against the regime, but for an average Iranian I do believe things got better.
Btw, I'm from Bangladesh, meaning I'm neither British nor Iranian.
Re: Providence Lost: The Rise and Fall of Cromwell’s Protectorate
#10Wow, what a truly offensive article. Firstly speaking as an Irish person, the dismissive tone here is outrageous: "And later in the century, as one phase of the conflict between England and Ireland followed another, the sins of Cromwell and his army in rooting out the supporters (both Catholic and Protestant) of the Stuarts in Ireland were used regularly as a stick with which to beat the English, albeit well over 300…
Indeed - Cromwell wasn't an aberration, he was the start of the occupation of Ireland with all the usual brutality of colonialism, and the Orange Order will happily bring him out as a "stick" in the other direction.
England ruled Ireland well before Cromwell.