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Universities forced to face addiction to foreign students’ money

bloomberg.com

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Re: Universities forced to face addiction to foreign students’ money

#21

Post by 8f2ab37a-ed6c »

At least in the US, rich foreign students shelling out big sums for US universities is one of the few legitimate paths towards immigration. You're paying 150-250k worth of access to an F1, CPT, OPT, a more streamlined path into the H-1B world, followed by permanent residency. You get to work for a US employer for a few years without having to bother with the lottery, while also applying to an H-1B at the same time. I believe this is most viable in the STEM degrees. My hunch is that getting hired into the US as an H-1B from abroad is more difficult since you don't know how interviewing in the US works, you can't easily fly out to dozens of interviews to set up a competitive bidding process, etc.

For others it's a way to build status back in the home country by having attended a US university, and then go back.

For others it's just a way to hang out in the country, while paying someone else to do all of the exam-taking for them. The wealthy Chinese-dense "626 area" in SoCal comes to mind as one of the big offenders in this underworld. They don't even show up to class, someone else does. There's no incentive for universities to police this, why bite the hand that feeds? The school gets a few hundred k in revenue, the wealthy student gets to live in the US for a few years, have fun. It's a win win, even though it corrupts the point of an F1 visa. Unlike H-1Bs, I don't think they're limited, so at least it's not a zero-sum game where some other "more deserving" students are screwed out of a place.

Just like decoupling health care from employment is a good idea, decoupling for-profit education from immigration seems like a good call as well. Unless we're on board with immigration being pay-to-play, vs using other markers besides family net worth in order to gate keep.

Re: Universities forced to face addiction to foreign students’ money

#22

Post by mb_72 »

neumann wrote: post #13

I work at a University in Australia and have been on both sides of academic and professional. This unravelling was on the horizon for everybody, maybe not so soon, but definitely in the viewport. In an effort to drive up income streams there has been a slow erosion of Australian education (more at some universities than others) to cater for the international (Chinese and Indian predominantly) market. There are all so…

"The recruitment of students is predatory and eventually the saturation of subpar graduates from these university degrees would have eventually resulted in the fading of both cultural and brand name prestige of sending your kids to Australia for study."

I would argue that this has occurred already; my associates in China assume that many students in Australia cheat their way through their degree, especially the ones who cheated their way into their degree (regarding the English requirements). eg https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-12-01/chinese-students-paid...

Re: Universities forced to face addiction to foreign students’ money

#23

Post by 8f2ab37a-ed6c »

smt88 wrote: post #14
balola wrote: post #10

If it can subsidize native students, it's not a bad thing, what's needed is an enviroment in which cheating and political manipulation can be freely called out.

I had the same attitude as you, but many of the wealthy, Chinese-raised students at my local (prestigious, private) university can't speak basic English. The school then has to choose to either fail the student or ignore their cheating. With a $250k incentive to choose the former, that's what they choose.

Has this been documented anywhere, by the way? You'd think that there would be more reporting around this topic.

Re: Universities forced to face addiction to foreign students’ money

#24

Post by curiousgal »

balola wrote: post #10

If it can subsidize native students, it's not a bad thing, what's needed is an enviroment in which cheating and political manipulation can be freely called out.

> cheating

I see this getting discussed a lot but having studied in the US, Africa and Europe, let me tell you that the reason it seems like Chinese students cheat a lot is because Americans don't cheat. Cheating culture in countries like France for example is prevalent compared to to the US. So yeah, it's not really a Chinese thing, it's a non-American thing. Students in foreign countries are usually not representative of the ones back home.

Re: Universities forced to face addiction to foreign students’ money

#25

Post by nraynaud »

pjc50 wrote: post #16
nitrogen wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You really have to consider follow-on effects. It's like outsourcing all your manufacturing -- eventually you'll need something local and won't be able to get it, and everyone local who could otherwise have helped will resent you for selling out your industry.

Isn't this the reverse? China has outsourced higher education to the West. What follow on effects are you referring to? Besides, students are typically non-local in any university town.

they are a 1B people country, from their point of view, foreign education is a fringe anecdote, no country in the world would even be able to house a significant share of their students.

Re: Universities forced to face addiction to foreign students’ money

#26

Post by fiblye »

balola wrote: post #10

If it can subsidize native students, it's not a bad thing, what's needed is an enviroment in which cheating and political manipulation can be freely called out.

It'd be nice if it seemed like it was subsidizing anything, but university costs continue to balloon out of control.

Re: Universities forced to face addiction to foreign students’ money

#27

Post by Causality1 »

I would like a detailed analysis to solidify my opinion. On one hand, some argue that accepting foreign students means there are fewer slots for native ones. On the other hand, some argue the higher tuition paid by foreign students allows universities to subsidize the cost of tuition for natives. The first group responds that foreign students only create increased demand and thus increase the cost of tuition and that even if universities were able to pass savings on for native students they choose not to do so.

I want numbers on these arguments.

Re: Universities forced to face addiction to foreign students’ money

#28

Post by throw_m239339 »

curiousgal wrote: post #24
balola wrote: post #10

If it can subsidize native students, it's not a bad thing, what's needed is an enviroment in which cheating and political manipulation can be freely called out.

> cheating I see this getting discussed a lot but having studied in the US, Africa and Europe, let me tell you that the reason it seems like Chinese students cheat a lot is because Americans don't cheat. Cheating culture in countries like France for example is prevalent compared to to the US. So yeah, it's not really a Chinese thing, it's a non-American thing. Students in foreign countries are usually not representat…

> Cheating culture in countries like France for example is prevalent compared to to the US

There is no more a culture of cheating in France than there is in US, that's preposterous. I can't let you say something like that. On the other hand there is a culture of cheating in China, which you can't possibly put on the same level, the amount of cheating you claim there is in France and the fact that Chinese institutions do not care about cheating. If you get caught cheating in France you won't be allowed to pass any official exam, like a diploma, for 5 years. France takes cheating very seriously.

Re: Universities forced to face addiction to foreign students’ money

#29

Post by DiogenesKynikos »

What about "addiction" to foreign students' talent? STEM research in the US benefits hugely from its ability to siphon off the top students from all over the world. In China, for example, the best students from top-tier universities tend to go abroad for their graduate studies. American labs get a steady supply of the top international grad students. Many of them remain in the US afterwards, which boosts related industries in the US.
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