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What concept would improve everybody's cognitive toolkit? Kayfabe (2011)

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Re: What concept would improve everybody's cognitive toolkit? Kayfabe (2011)

#61

Post by xvector »

motohagiography wrote: post #54

The writer was a guest on Rogan this weekend, and he was very engaging, he did wander a bit. He has a particular kind of breadth-first associative intelligence that can cause listeners to become almost hypnotized by all the open cognitive loops his conversation creates, not unlike the kayfabe concept he's touting. Similar things come up in the theory of musical composition where you create and resolve "tension," and…

Parts of your comment aren't making much sense to me. Could you define the following terms?

"breadth-first associative intelligence"

"open cognitive loops"

Re: What concept would improve everybody's cognitive toolkit? Kayfabe (2011)

#62

Post by rikthevik »

alexandercrohde wrote: post #50
machinelearning wrote: post #23

Does this mean Tiger King was all a Kayfabe?

Maybe you mean this as a joke but it absolutely was. At one point Joe mentions he and Carole made a lot of money off each other. He ran a whole internet show on the premise of vilifying her, and her whole "Cat Rescue" zoo couldn't exist without the likes of him. They both denounce each-other but depend on each-other. Though I suppose Kayfabe would maybe imply some mutual understanding of this interdependence and some…

Sort of like Batman and the Joker?

Re: What concept would improve everybody's cognitive toolkit? Kayfabe (2011)

#63

Post by adamsea »

tryitnow wrote: post #14
vearwhershuh wrote: post #6

I suppose it's a worthwhile concept. You can certainly look at professional politics, corporate messaging and the financial crises, basically all elite-preservation systems, through a kayfabe lens. On the other hand, I think everyone would be better off reading Propaganda, by Bernays. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda_(book) It's short.

I don't know. I just don't see it. Unlike in professional wrestling politicians, corporations, etc have real conflicts over zero sum games. Of course, there are situations where there's are incentives to cooperate. As for his critique of neoclassical economics' reliance on perfect information - that's already been addressed by many economists, Stiglitz, etc. It's frankly banal to even bring it up any longer. I just d…

A group of elites/privilege/whatever competing within a specific domain.

Even if you lose, you're still in the group and get certain privileges.

Keeping the wealth in the group is key.

I'm not a Bernie Bro, but he's not a bad example in this case - he represents interests outside the monied/corporate group, which although it competes across Democrat/Republican political lines, shows class solidarity when people want to, say, regulate Wall Street more, or enact universal healthcare which would hurt the bottom line of healthcare companies.

I'm sure my explanation above has its flaws but I hope it shares the gist of what I was trying to express.

Re: What concept would improve everybody's cognitive toolkit? Kayfabe (2011)

#64

Post by lukifer »

motohagiography wrote: post #54

The writer was a guest on Rogan this weekend, and he was very engaging, he did wander a bit. He has a particular kind of breadth-first associative intelligence that can cause listeners to become almost hypnotized by all the open cognitive loops his conversation creates, not unlike the kayfabe concept he's touting. Similar things come up in the theory of musical composition where you create and resolve "tension," and…

Eric Weinstein also has a podcast of his own, the most recent episode of which features his original lecture detailing the Geometric Unity model he discussed on Rogan (though even the dumbed-down version flies right over my head): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7rd04KzLcg

> He has a particular kind of breadth-first associative intelligence that can cause listeners to become almost hypnotized by all the open cognitive loops his conversation creates

Well said. Eric is also gaining a reputation for coining labels, the best known being the "Intellectual Dark Web", alongside lesser-known acronyms like EGO (Embedded Growth Obligation), GIN (Gated Institutional Narrative), and DISC (Distributed Idea Suppression Complex).

Re: What concept would improve everybody's cognitive toolkit? Kayfabe (2011)

#65

Post by afarrell »

DubiousPusher wrote: post #32
tryitnow wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know. I just don't see it. Unlike in professional wrestling politicians, corporations, etc have real conflicts over zero sum games. Of course, there are situations where there's are incentives to cooperate. As for his critique of neoclassical economics' reliance on perfect information - that's already been addressed by many economists, Stiglitz, etc. It's frankly banal to even bring it up any longer. I just d…

I guess it kind of depends on how much you believe in the conspiracy of elites. But even in the weak form of that conspiracy, it seems to me the exchange of people and ideas between think tanks, journalism, lobbyists, campaigns, consultancies and financial imstitutions does operate a lot according to this concept. I guess regardless I think the idea is not to try to find exact examples of this but to understand that…

What would help me is more illustration of the line between kayfabe and decency.

It seems like the line is "The audience is misled about the actual social norms". When olympic wrestlers refuse to stab each other, it is not kayfabe because the audience doesn't expect that. The Christmas Truce and various anti-latrine-bombing truces were kayfabe because the audience was British and German high command and these were done behind their backs.

If thats the right interpretation, then in this example:

> Perhaps confusing battles between "freshwater" Chicago macro economists and Ivy league "Saltwater" theorists could be best understood as happening within a single "orthodox promotion" given that both groups suffered no injury from failing (equally) to predict the recent financial crisis.

What injury would the audience expect?

Who even is "the audience"?

Re: What concept would improve everybody's cognitive toolkit? Kayfabe (2011)

#66

Post by rukuu001 »

tryitnow wrote: post #14
vearwhershuh wrote: post #6

I suppose it's a worthwhile concept. You can certainly look at professional politics, corporate messaging and the financial crises, basically all elite-preservation systems, through a kayfabe lens. On the other hand, I think everyone would be better off reading Propaganda, by Bernays. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda_(book) It's short.

I don't know. I just don't see it. Unlike in professional wrestling politicians, corporations, etc have real conflicts over zero sum games. Of course, there are situations where there's are incentives to cooperate. As for his critique of neoclassical economics' reliance on perfect information - that's already been addressed by many economists, Stiglitz, etc. It's frankly banal to even bring it up any longer. I just d…

> politicians, corporations, etc have real conflicts over zero sum games. Of course, there are situations where there's are incentives to cooperate.

I have a great example, called the ‘mating call of the banks’ (in Australia, don’t know if there’s something similar elsewhere).

We only have four major banks here, and sometimes one or more of them wants to raise interest rates out of cycle (ie without the Australian Reserve bank changing official rates).

Of course, if only one of them raises rates, they’ll lose business.

And ultimately, they all want higher rates.

So one of them will book some media spots (easy if you’re a big advertiser) and start talking about the state of the economy and how it’s out of step with fiscal policy, etc etc.

That’s a mating call.

If some other bank’s talking head turns up saying the same thing, then that’s another one. That’s a signal that at least two banks will raise rates together.

Once they’ve done that, the other two will surely follow.

Publicly executed conspiracy to fix prices.

Re: What concept would improve everybody's cognitive toolkit? Kayfabe (2011)

#67

Post by eindiran »

xvector wrote: post #61
motohagiography wrote: post #54

The writer was a guest on Rogan this weekend, and he was very engaging, he did wander a bit. He has a particular kind of breadth-first associative intelligence that can cause listeners to become almost hypnotized by all the open cognitive loops his conversation creates, not unlike the kayfabe concept he's touting. Similar things come up in the theory of musical composition where you create and resolve "tension," and…

Parts of your comment aren't making much sense to me. Could you define the following terms? "breadth-first associative intelligence" "open cognitive loops"

Not OP but this is my reading:

* "Breadth" as opposed to depth; in the sense of someone who knows a lot of relatively surface-level things across many areas, and can synthesize them. "Associative" in the way you're quickly associating concepts. In the same sense as "free association".

* The loops are analogous to the notes mentioned in the OP that are resolved all at once. Imagine a chain of associated concepts revealed over a conversation, sometimes with gaps between, that all lead towards a larger synthetic point.

Re: What concept would improve everybody's cognitive toolkit? Kayfabe (2011)

#68

Post by machinelearning »

alexandercrohde wrote: post #50
machinelearning wrote: post #23

Does this mean Tiger King was all a Kayfabe?

Maybe you mean this as a joke but it absolutely was. At one point Joe mentions he and Carole made a lot of money off each other. He ran a whole internet show on the premise of vilifying her, and her whole "Cat Rescue" zoo couldn't exist without the likes of him. They both denounce each-other but depend on each-other. Though I suppose Kayfabe would maybe imply some mutual understanding of this interdependence and some…

Lol I think its a case study in Kayfabe, especially the part where Joe Exotic ironically went off-script and orchestrated a shoot. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoot_(professional_wrestling)

A "shoot" is when the agreed-upon boundaries are broken and a "worked shoot" is one where they are "broken" but actually planned E.g. when Joe's barn burned down. Classic.

Re: What concept would improve everybody's cognitive toolkit? Kayfabe (2011)

#69

Post by darkerside »

motohagiography wrote: post #54

The writer was a guest on Rogan this weekend, and he was very engaging, he did wander a bit. He has a particular kind of breadth-first associative intelligence that can cause listeners to become almost hypnotized by all the open cognitive loops his conversation creates, not unlike the kayfabe concept he's touting. Similar things come up in the theory of musical composition where you create and resolve "tension," and…

> When you think about it, how our mind works is fundamentally the only actual problem. Everything else is just an artifact of it.

I think this nails it and is really the main thrust of the kayfabe analogy. It's also something I came to understand a few years ago, and have since had a lot of trouble getting others to understand the concept.

Re: What concept would improve everybody's cognitive toolkit? Kayfabe (2011)

#70

Post by KaoruAoiShiho »

tryitnow wrote: post #14
vearwhershuh wrote: post #6

I suppose it's a worthwhile concept. You can certainly look at professional politics, corporate messaging and the financial crises, basically all elite-preservation systems, through a kayfabe lens. On the other hand, I think everyone would be better off reading Propaganda, by Bernays. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda_(book) It's short.

I don't know. I just don't see it. Unlike in professional wrestling politicians, corporations, etc have real conflicts over zero sum games. Of course, there are situations where there's are incentives to cooperate. As for his critique of neoclassical economics' reliance on perfect information - that's already been addressed by many economists, Stiglitz, etc. It's frankly banal to even bring it up any longer. I just d…

I think it depends on the relative power of the audience and the effectiveness of cooperation within the promotion.

When the audience turning on you is a stronger threat than that of losing to a rival, kayfabe situations are likelier to develop. But vice versa. In a lot of modern arenas, such as business between banks or competition between democracies where war is nigh impossible, kayfabe is highly likely to be present. There's not much room for major victories over your nominal rivals so you stop trying and instead focus on looking good rather than actually moving forward.

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