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Mysterious heart damage, not just lung troubles, befalling Covid-19 patients

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Re: Mysterious heart damage, not just lung troubles, befalling Covid-19 patients

#91

Post by MrBuddyCasino »

jacquesm wrote: post #86

So, I've been battling this bug for the last three weeks or so, probably caught it on the way back from my last job in Finland. I expected an empty plane instead it was packed like it was the last train out of San Fernando and everybody was scared there never would be another one. After a week or so symptoms started in spite of having self-isolated already after the flight, so that's why I figure that is where I caug…

There is a hypothesis [0] that the virus attacks red blood cells and impacts their capacity to transport O2, and that the lung damage is actually caused by that, and not directly by the virus. Elevated heart rate makes a lot of sense.

[0] see thread and linked paper: https://twitter.com/yishan/status/1244717172871409666

Re: Mysterious heart damage, not just lung troubles, befalling Covid-19 patients

#92

Post by war1025 »

wbl wrote: post #23
carlsborg wrote: post #3

There is a paper circulating that claims that the virus impedes red blood cells leading to organ failure including lungs, and not the other way round.

That paper uses computer models of protein interactions not actual ethyrocyte on vero 6 cultured COVID experiment. It's an interesting line of investigation but I want to see more in vitro and ideally in vivo findings supporting that before I believe it.

It seems super shaky right now, but it's definitely something I'd like to see investigated further.

Re: Mysterious heart damage, not just lung troubles, befalling Covid-19 patients

#93

Post by jacquesm »

MrBuddyCasino wrote: post #91
jacquesm wrote: post #86

So, I've been battling this bug for the last three weeks or so, probably caught it on the way back from my last job in Finland. I expected an empty plane instead it was packed like it was the last train out of San Fernando and everybody was scared there never would be another one. After a week or so symptoms started in spite of having self-isolated already after the flight, so that's why I figure that is where I caug…

There is a hypothesis [0] that the virus attacks red blood cells and impacts their capacity to transport O2, and that the lung damage is actually caused by that, and not directly by the virus. Elevated heart rate makes a lot of sense. [0] see thread and linked paper: https://twitter.com/yishan/status/1244717172871409666

Reference?

Re: Mysterious heart damage, not just lung troubles, befalling Covid-19 patients

#94

Post by war1025 »

nanl2053 wrote: post #9
carlsborg wrote: post #3

There is a paper circulating that claims that the virus impedes red blood cells leading to organ failure including lungs, and not the other way round.

Do you have a link?

This is the other article I saw cited.

https://www.cureus.com/articles/29004-acetazolamide-nifedipi...

Re: Mysterious heart damage, not just lung troubles, befalling Covid-19 patients

#95

Post by PaulHoule »

panax wrote: post #65
PaulHoule wrote: post #10

There are ACE-2 receptors all over the heart.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAW6VBWTiAA#t=36m ACE2 is also found in several other organs in which they are seeing multiple organ failure with this virus so it likely is can bind to them and contribute to damage in these organs including the heart but as OP says there are multiple ways the heart could be affected Loss of ACE2 receptors in the heart can cause impaired heart function https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=…

Also there is a close connection between the heart, kidney, kidneys and other organs.

For instance, ACE1 and ACE2 receptors are involved in a complex hormonal system that manages your blood volume, blood pressure, etc. Antihypertensive drugs target this system at different points. (ACE inhibitor drugs such as Lisinopril target the ACE1 receptor and don't bind much to ACE2 at all)

Liver failure can present with symptoms similar to asthma because if your kidneys can't get rid of water, the water will leak out of your lungs.

I had a friend who passed away last year from a bacterial infection that got to his heart. We all have bacteria that live on our skin without problems, but if you get a wound they can get into your blood and go to your heart.

He had heart valve damage which is bad because if your heart valves work improperly, it can damage your blood the way you can 'damage' cream by whipping it. This can cause clots to go into your lungs or your brain with bad results either way.

He had open heart surgery but they had a hard time restarting his heart and he was in a coma for a few months before they removed his feeding tube.

One reason why penicillin was a miracle was that all sorts of people who got even minor wounds (e.g. soldiers, children, farmers, ...) would progress like that before WWII.

Re: Mysterious heart damage, not just lung troubles, befalling Covid-19 patients

#96

Post by quotemstr »

cowpig wrote: post #33

There's so much blind speculation in this comment section. The kind that's intriguing and fun when it's about engineering/math/whatever, but dangerous when it's about the health effects of an ongoing pandemic. I hope moderators do something about it.

Nobody who tries to shape public discussion is ever working in my interest. If a system is so fragile that it can't withstand people talking about it, poking at it, and suggesting alternatives, that system deserves to fail. The impulse to reach for censorship is the same impulse that has created historical abominations. I categorically reject all censorship, even of medical speculation.

Re: Mysterious heart damage, not just lung troubles, befalling Covid-19 patients

#97

Post by pvaldes »

cowpig wrote: post #33

There's so much blind speculation in this comment section. The kind that's intriguing and fun when it's about engineering/math/whatever, but dangerous when it's about the health effects of an ongoing pandemic. I hope moderators do something about it.

Speculation lies half-way to understanding correctly any complex problem from all sides. As long as is filtered by logic and including the known facts falling in its place, speculation is a good thing, not bad.

Heart arrest can be also external (deliberate crime or medical error) so is important to discuss and understand any anomaly. Physicians and nurses are about at the end of their forces (and incredibly upset) in many places.

Re: Mysterious heart damage, not just lung troubles, befalling Covid-19 patients

#98

Post by 013a »

411111111111111 wrote: post #55
Cthulhu_ wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could be having panic attacks; based on the fact you've got numbers, it sounds to me like you're actively monitoring your own blood saturation, which already implies you may be worrying too much about things like that. Don't underestimate the effects of worry and stress. If it's temporary and you don't have other symptoms then you probably don't have the virus.

Definitely a possibility. I'm not monitoring it however. I just checked whenever it got extremely bad and again after it went away. I do have the other symptoms though. Only the fever is missing.

This is classic anxiety. I've spoke with a surprising number of people who've never experienced something like this before, never thought they could get anxiety/panic attacks, think they have the virus, etc. In some cases, even a mild fever (99-100) isn't crazy; the human body is a fucked up piece of machinery, and reading all the news every day, even comments like the one I'm writing, it starts convincing itself that it has the virus even when it doesn't.

You just need to disconnect. Its both hard, and easy. Play video games. Focus on work if you're able. Shut out the news, Trump, all of that. Try to meditate. Pray. Cook. Go for walks. If it gets especially bad, I've had a couple friends who have gotten anxiety prescriptions from their doctor over the phone (its very common right now).

Re: Mysterious heart damage, not just lung troubles, befalling Covid-19 patients

#99

Post by marshalltony »

henearkr wrote: post #84
thomashobohm wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, panic attacks have no "real" cause by definition. They are your body overreacting in response to a perceived threat that isn't really there; they are a type of cognitive distortion. If a panic attack was in response to a "real" cause, it wouldn't be a panic attack, it would be a normal response to a threat.

I know, but look, it is not the correct behavior of the body, right? So obviously something is wrong, and I find it hard to believe that the problem is from the mind if the patient is not himself stating it. In most cases, if he has an anxiety problem, he would straightly start by talking about it, like "I have been in wrong terms with my neighbors for years, and now just thinking they are next door is hurting my che…

You are very uninformed about anxiety, so please just stop.

Re: Mysterious heart damage, not just lung troubles, befalling Covid-19 patients

#100

Post by henearkr »

SketchySeaBeast wrote: post #90
henearkr wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know, but look, it is not the correct behavior of the body, right? So obviously something is wrong, and I find it hard to believe that the problem is from the mind if the patient is not himself stating it. In most cases, if he has an anxiety problem, he would straightly start by talking about it, like "I have been in wrong terms with my neighbors for years, and now just thinking they are next door is hurting my che…

> "I have been in wrong terms with my neighbors for years, and now just thinking they are next door is hurting my chest and making me hard to breathe"... Not at all. Anxiety is hearing the boss music in a video game and not seeing any enemies. I'll often find myself so tense I'm holding my breath with no ability to rationalize why I'm in that state. It's a real bastard.

You're right. So (I agree with you but from here I'm trying to think about some path to search an explanation) maybe could it be explained by some long-term learning of the body-mind connection under repeated stress situations (like being in a crowd while being self-conscious), and then it repeats itself without the obvious stimulus?

What I resent, actually, is when physicians are presented with a package of somatic symptoms and sympathetic/parasympathetic symptoms, and readily discard the somatic part in order to jump to the "panic attack" conclusion.

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