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Tesla Ventilator

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Re: Tesla Ventilator

#51
post #31
post #27

Yes, this is an impressive amount of work done in a few weeks by a small team at Tesla. However, medical devices, especially for life support systems, are not a Hackathon project. These devices breathe air into patients lungs. They need to be manufactured in clean room conditions, with medical grade parts, not plumbing parts from a big box store. They must be designed and tested to ISO specifications. If this fails,…

> If this fails, the patient can die. In the current situation, I doubt anybody will give any regard to your sentiment. Though, I myself will. > The smarter idea is to ramp up existing proven designs, not reinvent the wheel and basically do a publicity stunt about your engineering talent. This is what China did. Ctrl-C, Ctrl-V, and knockoff ventilators began to fly off assembly lines in less than a month. P.S. In oth…

I'm not so sure about your conclusion of banning exports.

Your link at SCMP says "companies must demonstrate to the Chinese customs agency that their products meet the relevant standards of the countries to which there goods are being exported."

Isn't this also a good idea to ensure quality?

Re: Tesla Ventilator

#52
post #27

Yes, this is an impressive amount of work done in a few weeks by a small team at Tesla. However, medical devices, especially for life support systems, are not a Hackathon project. These devices breathe air into patients lungs. They need to be manufactured in clean room conditions, with medical grade parts, not plumbing parts from a big box store. They must be designed and tested to ISO specifications. If this fails,…

Personally if I were gasping for air I'd take my chances with something built from a garden hose, duct tape, and parts from Home Depot.

Re: Tesla Ventilator

#55
post #31
post #27

Yes, this is an impressive amount of work done in a few weeks by a small team at Tesla. However, medical devices, especially for life support systems, are not a Hackathon project. These devices breathe air into patients lungs. They need to be manufactured in clean room conditions, with medical grade parts, not plumbing parts from a big box store. They must be designed and tested to ISO specifications. If this fails,…

> If this fails, the patient can die. In the current situation, I doubt anybody will give any regard to your sentiment. Though, I myself will. > The smarter idea is to ramp up existing proven designs, not reinvent the wheel and basically do a publicity stunt about your engineering talent. This is what China did. Ctrl-C, Ctrl-V, and knockoff ventilators began to fly off assembly lines in less than a month. P.S. In oth…

From the article:

> of the 102 Chinese companies with CE accreditation, just 21 were licensed to sell their products within China

It's not clear to me what they're trying to do here. Why did they make this new law that prevents 80% of the accredited companies from exporting medical supplies?

Re: Tesla Ventilator

#56
post #25
post #2

Not sure what to think of this. Any people working with real medical ventilators care to comment on this?

Free PR nothing else (and nothing wrong with that). Those engineers didn't call up the marketing/pr dept and ask for a professional video crew to show up - "cause we just want to share an update with the world".

It’s more than that. Tesla engineers themselves probably are itching to help. Check out GE’s workers getting mad that the company wasn’t helping to make ventilators. People join companies like Tesla and SpaceX because they want to be challenged, have a bias for action (of course, everything still needs to be qualified), and make the world a better place. In a global pandemic that can be helped by addressing a shortage of manufactured stuff, engineers aren’t going to want to just sit on their hands if there’s a chance their efforts could be helpful.

It’s not just corporate PR. It’s not just Elon Musk. It’s also these workers wanting to help the world.

Re: Tesla Ventilator

#57
This is good, and I'm glad they're doing it.

They've clearly got involvement with existing ventilator manufacturers.

Are they talking to doctors in ITUs? Here's a recent Facebook thread from people involved in London's new hospital: https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?id=103930280957826&st...

It shows that ventilation of covid-19 patients is not like ventilation of other patients.

I'll paste part of it here because I know some can't visit Facebook.

It's by Daniel Martin OBE, Macintosh Professor of Anaesthesia, Intensive Care Lead for High Consequence Infectious Diseases.

---everything below this point is a direct quote from Daniel Martin---

Ventilation

- Early high PEEP is probably not the right strategy and may be harmful. This is not ARDS in the early phase of the illness.

- Avoid spontaneous ventilation early in ICU admission as also may be harmful.

- There is clear microvascular thrombosis happening in the pulmonary circulation, which leads to an increased dead space.

- Also some evidence of early pulmonary fibrosis reported from Italy, possibly oxygen related, possibly inflammation related.

- Not many patients have reached extubation yet in London, re-intubation seems to be common. I highlighted our experiences of airway swelling / stridor / reintubation.

- Brompton are seeing wedge infarcts in the lungs on imaging, along with pulmonary thrombosis without DVT.

- Proning is essential and should be done early. Don’t just do it once. Threshold for many centres is a PF ratio of 13, but all agreed, do it even earlier.

- Early on in the disease, the benefit of proning lasts - Many centres using inhaled nitric oxide and prostacyclin with good effect. Tachyphylaxis with NO after 4-5 days.

- Generally people are using humidified circuits with HMEs.

- A very interesting thing they are doing at Georges is cohorting by phase of disease i.e. early, late, extubation / trachy. It involves more moving of patients but helps each team to focus on things more easily.

- Leak test before extubation is crucial, others are also seeing airway swelling.

- Wait longer than usual before extubating, high reintubation rates reported. Do not extubatne if inflam markers still high.

My conclusions from this are:

- Less aggressive PEEP strategy at the beginning of the disease and go straight for proning.

- Thromboembolic disease is prevalent, look for it. No one is sure about whether we should anti-coagulate everyone, this is probably too risky.

- An extubation protocol is needed immediately.

- We should consider using inhaled prostacyclin again (like we previously did) as it seems to be working early in the disease.

Re: Tesla Ventilator

#58
post #41
post #27

Yes, this is an impressive amount of work done in a few weeks by a small team at Tesla. However, medical devices, especially for life support systems, are not a Hackathon project. These devices breathe air into patients lungs. They need to be manufactured in clean room conditions, with medical grade parts, not plumbing parts from a big box store. They must be designed and tested to ISO specifications. If this fails,…

> If this fails, the patient can die. If these patients receive no help, they die anyway. Given the choice between almost certain death or some experimental piece of hardware - give me the experimental hardware. > I can't imagine any hospital or doctor careless enough to > connect one of these to a patient, even in this current > emergency. I'm sure they will go through accelerated testing. > The smarter idea is to r…

> If these patients receive no help, they die anyway. Given the choice between almost certain death or some experimental piece of hardware - give me the experimental hardware.

???

No big deal if the ventilator:

kills more people than the disease.

contaminates workers.

gives you cancer, HIV, MRSA or paralyzes the lung requiring a transplant.

ignites and burns people alive from the inside.

makes the disease resistant to disinfectants, so contagious areas have to be closed down for decades.

sprays out the disease into the hospital ventilation system.

???

Re: Tesla Ventilator

#59
post #14

Are there certification requirements for newly designed ventilators? If so, how long would that take?

Years, decades? It really depends on a lot. But on average, 12 years. FDA can work fast, and likely will here. But even for something 'simple' it can take a while. Medical devices are really complicated and take a lot of testing. It's not like NASA or something where you're only blowing up John Glenn. We're dealing with a million dead babies/grandmothers/new brides/etc, potentially.

https://www.drugs.com/fda-approval-process.html

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