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Mysterious heart damage, not just lung troubles, befalling Covid-19 patients

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Re: Mysterious heart damage, not just lung troubles, befalling Covid-19 patients

#61

Post by cowpig »

trentnix wrote: post #54
cowpig wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but those people know a bunch of things we don't, and are not speculating on an internet message board for thousands of random people to read.

We ? My experience has been that Hacker News is filled with world-class experts on all manner of subjects. I've no doubt infectious diseases is one of those subjects, as well.

Supposing for a second that you're right, you still need the average upvoter/downvoter to be able to tell the difference between the opinions of world-class experts and convincing but baseless speculation for the whole system not to become a misinformation machine.

And even if you have that, there's always a risk that someone out there reads the most dangerously stupid comments and interpret them as gospel no matter how downvoted.

Re: Mysterious heart damage, not just lung troubles, befalling Covid-19 patients

#62

Post by saiya-jin »

cowpig wrote: post #41
jpxw wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you explain how exactly it is “dangerous”?

Speculating about how the virus works on the internet, especially in the confident kind of tone I'm seeing in this comment section, leads people to take that speculation as fact, repeat it, and then you have misinformation spreading on an ongoing health crisis that people use to inform decisions they make in their lives which affect themselves and others. I am not a doctor myself, but I am dating one, and helped her…

This could be said about any time, any disease, or well... anything ever on internet. I for one am glad folks share their opinions here, if one can't distinguish between speculations, opinions and facts then problem lies elsewhere.

I too have my wife a doctor, and I was shocked how little and behind-the-curve their covid infection information is. Most specialist doctors here treated covid in 'what the heck are people worried about, just another flu, right' fashion till maybe 2 weeks ago. Mind you, we talk about Switzerland here with northern italy 50-100km from here, and experts in their (non-virology) fields like urology surgeon, nephrologist, radiologist, emergency doctor(!) and so on.

For once, thank you internet and (also) HN users!

Re: Mysterious heart damage, not just lung troubles, befalling Covid-19 patients

#63

Post by catalogia »

freehunter wrote: post #39
jpxw wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you explain how exactly it is “dangerous”?

Speculation on treatments for Covid-19 has already killed people: https://ktla.com/news/arizona-man-dies-after-taking-form-of-...

Censoring comment sections on HN just because one moron in a million might take it upon themselves to do something stupid and get themselves killed?

Have you heard of the expression "the cure is worse than the disease"? It applies as much to what you and cowpig are proposing as it does to what that man chose to do.

Re: Mysterious heart damage, not just lung troubles, befalling Covid-19 patients

#64

Post by cowpig »

jpxw wrote: post #50
cowpig wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speculating about how the virus works on the internet, especially in the confident kind of tone I'm seeing in this comment section, leads people to take that speculation as fact, repeat it, and then you have misinformation spreading on an ongoing health crisis that people use to inform decisions they make in their lives which affect themselves and others. I am not a doctor myself, but I am dating one, and helped her…

There’s definitely some danger in people downplaying this virus, I totally agree. But I don’t see that happening in this comment section. I see people discussing how the virus might work, and trying to explain why these examples have been observed.

That is the HN-equivalent of the same thing. I've heard multiple doctors tell me their worst patients are the smartest ones, because they're used to thinking for themselves and then make dangerous modifications to their advice without understanding all of the reasoning and context behind it (which they cannot explain in a sitting).

Re: Mysterious heart damage, not just lung troubles, befalling Covid-19 patients

#65

Post by panax »

PaulHoule wrote: post #10

There are ACE-2 receptors all over the heart.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAW6VBWTiAA#t=36m

ACE2 is also found in several other organs in which they are seeing multiple organ failure with this virus so it likely is can bind to them and contribute to damage in these organs including the heart but as OP says there are multiple ways the heart could be affected

Loss of ACE2 receptors in the heart can cause impaired heart function

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAW6VBWTiAA#t=8m

Re: Mysterious heart damage, not just lung troubles, befalling Covid-19 patients

#66

Post by SpicyLemonZest »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #59
dcolkitt wrote: post #28

This headline is definitely a lot scarier than the actual body of the study. The most likely cause of the heart damage by far is the systemic inflammation induced by pneumonia. We know this because pneumonia patients of all types often have heart strain afterwards[1]. But that damage is very rarely permanent as the risk subsides back to baseline given enough time. Until we see evidence of heart issues in patients wit…

> The most likely cause of the heart damage by far is the systemic inflammation induced by pneumonia Isn’t this premature given the lack of data? We’re seeing an anomaly documented and being studied. It’s not cause for alarm. But neither does it merit such dismissal.

I don't think it's premature, no. We have a lot of data indicating that it's a respiratory disease. It should be studied, almost any coronavirus anomaly is worth studying, but we know what conclusion to expect.

Re: Mysterious heart damage, not just lung troubles, befalling Covid-19 patients

#67

Post by sergiosgc »

cowpig wrote: post #41
jpxw wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you explain how exactly it is “dangerous”?

Speculating about how the virus works on the internet, especially in the confident kind of tone I'm seeing in this comment section, leads people to take that speculation as fact, repeat it, and then you have misinformation spreading on an ongoing health crisis that people use to inform decisions they make in their lives which affect themselves and others. I am not a doctor myself, but I am dating one, and helped her…

HN is peculiar. It's one of the few forums where you can find rocket scientists talking about rocket science. Much more important, when talking about rocket science, non rocket scientists often state their experience is from playing KSP. I mean, people often declare their ignorance when writing a comment, without being afraid of any negative consequence. This is good. It means its an educated audience -- uneducated audiences rarely assume incompetence. An educated audience does not require as much of "nanny" moderation, for lack of a better term.

I hope HN mantains this profile, and I hope this profile applies to medical science as much as it applies to rocket science. I've learnt a lot about rocket science from discussions here, and I hope to learn a lot about medical science from discussions here. All without any danger of assembling and flying my own rockets, or cooking my own medication. I am very aware that Dunning-Kruger applies to everyone, myself included.

Re: Mysterious heart damage, not just lung troubles, befalling Covid-19 patients

#68

Post by cowpig »

saiya-jin wrote: post #62
cowpig wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speculating about how the virus works on the internet, especially in the confident kind of tone I'm seeing in this comment section, leads people to take that speculation as fact, repeat it, and then you have misinformation spreading on an ongoing health crisis that people use to inform decisions they make in their lives which affect themselves and others. I am not a doctor myself, but I am dating one, and helped her…

This could be said about any time, any disease, or well... anything ever on internet. I for one am glad folks share their opinions here, if one can't distinguish between speculations, opinions and facts then problem lies elsewhere. I too have my wife a doctor, and I was shocked how little and behind-the-curve their covid infection information is. Most specialist doctors here treated covid in 'what the heck are people…

> Most specialist doctors here treated covid in 'what the heck are people worried about, just another flu, right' fashion till maybe 2 weeks ago.

I consider statements about what "most specialist doctors" were doing, especially without citation, to be a form of the misinformation I'm talking about.

If there were people who didn't take the oncoming pandemic seriously enough, they should probably revisit their priors and processes by which they come to conclusions.

But it doesn't mean we should start posting about it on the internet as justification for speculating on things we don't understand, and simultaneously casting doubt on the expertise or authority of an entire group of professionals.

Re: Mysterious heart damage, not just lung troubles, befalling Covid-19 patients

#69

Post by celdon25 »

cowpig wrote: post #61
trentnix wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We ? My experience has been that Hacker News is filled with world-class experts on all manner of subjects. I've no doubt infectious diseases is one of those subjects, as well.

Supposing for a second that you're right, you still need the average upvoter/downvoter to be able to tell the difference between the opinions of world-class experts and convincing but baseless speculation for the whole system not to become a misinformation machine. And even if you have that, there's always a risk that someone out there reads the most dangerously stupid comments and interpret them as gospel no matter…

Since when did the goal of the Internet become to protect people from harmful information? This has been used as a justification for mass censorship and it needs to stop.

Re: Mysterious heart damage, not just lung troubles, befalling Covid-19 patients

#70

Post by steve76 »

411111111111111 wrote: post #31

let me preface this by mentioning that i havent been tested for covid-19. two weeks ago i've been having real issues breathing. it felt like my upper body was borderline paralyzed and i had to really force myself to fully breathe in. this wasn't constant but happened every day for several hours each. especially at night. i got worried that i might have the virus so i checked my temperature and oxygen blood saturation…

> i had to really force myself to fully breathe in

Focus on exhaling, emptying your lungs.

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