Minimalism conceals the messy realities of society • Hacker News Board

Re: Minimalism conceals the messy realities of society

#141

Post by friendlybus » Sun, Apr 05, 2020, 4:07 PM UTC

kasey_junk wrote: post #88

friendlybus wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He didn’t make that 2x4 or the scrap iron, they came from hardware shops long ago. Your dad is capable of repairing anything because he has the mindset, creativity and skills. Were he rich he could take that same self reliance down to the local hardware store and buy what he needs to repair anything. Though arguably if he were richer he wouldn’t be repairing so much, he’d be doing something else successfully as a sel…

In OPs story, the trip to the local hardware store was hours away...

Then in what sense does self reliance and minimalism demand poverty? That’s self imposed exile.

Re: Minimalism conceals the messy realities of society

#142

Post by anotheracct » Sun, Apr 05, 2020, 4:13 PM UTC

jcims wrote: post #25

DubiousPusher wrote: post #4

Two ideas which often I encounter together yet I have grown to find incompatible are self reliance and minimalism. If you wish to become more self reliant i.e. more able to handle for yourself rather than through another's labor the impositions you create in the world, you will find yourself needing to masters, access and eventual own many more tools and material. My father, a man capable of building or repairing alm…

I’m processing your comment because i think i agree. The problem is that ‘minimalist’ is a little squishy. It would be hard to argue that the Amish aren’t self-reliant. I’m just trying to figure out if they would be considered minimalist. They are low on consumerism, but they have sprawl. Relatively large farms with lots of animals and barns and equipment. Dunno. In my own little vision for a self reliant future i se…

The amish absolutely are not self reliant.

They have people drive them to Costco and the court. They take buses and it is not uncommon in an Amish Community for one of them to have a phone line in a barn for emergencies.I have seen them use farm equipment that they technically shouldn't use and plenty of them just farm out the labor to someone who will use the equipment. They usually have "go to" people outside of the Amish sect that does shit for them that technically goes against their beliefs.

I have lived around Amish people my entire life. I am in a county that is famous for them. They are in no way self reliant. They are a cult that at this point, only half asses their own ideology.

Re: Minimalism conceals the messy realities of society

#143

Post by anotheracct » Sun, Apr 05, 2020, 4:18 PM UTC

bambataa wrote: post #60

DubiousPusher wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amish are definitely not minimalist. The array of tools Amish carpenters have and are skilled with is very impressive.

They might have many tools but they probably make them themselves or know by name the person who makes them. Out of close to raw material. (I’m assuming the Amish don’t mine and smelt their own metals). One modern power tool could replace many of those Amish tools but it brings with it so many more dependencies.

That's not true at all. In another comment of mine I discussed this. They generally get their equipment outside of the community. They are no longer self sufficient in the sense that you think they are. They might make some shit but for sure go to Costco and stuff like that. The costco close to where I live even has a place for their horse and buggies(which should be outlawed IMO. The cruelty to horses is undeniable and the Amish don't even pay road taxes).

You have a big misconception about Amish. They are not minimalists in any sense of the word. Don't let the button thing fool you. They're just a shitty cult at this point.

Re: Minimalism conceals the messy realities of society

#144

Post by tsimionescu » Sun, Apr 05, 2020, 4:20 PM UTC

nicbou wrote: post #57

tsimionescu wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure! But a day only has 24h and you need to work, rest&relax, eat and shop somewhere in there. If a repair job costs me 1h of time or 2h's worth of labour in money, it's not clear that I can afford the 1h of literal time. Not to mention that a job that it might take a service 1h's worth of labour to do may take me 2-3h, amortized with the learning curve (say, 4-5h first time I try, and eventually down to 1.5-2h afte…

You're right. In the end, it comes down to picking your battles. There's no hard rule for which battles are worth it. I do my own motorcycle repairs, because I sometimes stray far from the nearest mechanic, and field repairs can be necessary. I also cook a lot, because I have to eat every day and restaurants are expensive. However, I paid someone to rebuild my forks, and I buy pre-made pie shells. Those things are no…

> I guess it depends on how pleasant the job is to you, how often you need it done, and how much it costs to get it done relative to your own salary.

Yes, this is the most important point I think.

Re: Minimalism conceals the messy realities of society

#145

Post by 1MachineElf » Sun, Apr 05, 2020, 4:20 PM UTC

jdietrich wrote: post #85

closeparen wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your possessions all have practical utility, you are already a hardcore minimalist. No one should begrudge you a well-stocked and well-used workshop. That’s not what the minimalist message is supposed to be about. It’s the stuff accumulated carelessly, just because you could. Decorative doo-dads, outfits worn once, toys from kids long since grown, furniture retained out of a sense of duty. The suburban middle-clas…

>If your possessions all have practical utility, you are already a hardcore minimalist. The problem is that "practical utility" isn't always obvious. I have boxes and boxes of components and other oddments that collectively form a useful library, but I have no way of predicting which specific oddments will be useful in future. Any given item is currently useless, but might become extremely useful at some indeterminab…

Earlier this week, I accidentally dropped a box full of old computer parts that hadn't been touched in almost a year. Some old hard drives flew out and crashed on the floor.

I thought "good thing everything on those drives is backed up, and nothing critical was lost."

Yesterday I got a call from one of the former owners of one of these drives. They lost the USB stick I gave them a long time ago with their software license key that I pulled from one of those drives.

The drives I had been hoarding could have saved us $500 on Adelo POS software. One man's trash really can be another's treasure.

Re: Minimalism conceals the messy realities of society

#146

Post by grecy » Sun, Apr 05, 2020, 4:22 PM UTC

DubiousPusher wrote: post #4

Two ideas which often I encounter together yet I have grown to find incompatible are self reliance and minimalism. If you wish to become more self reliant i.e. more able to handle for yourself rather than through another's labor the impositions you create in the world, you will find yourself needing to masters, access and eventual own many more tools and material. My father, a man capable of building or repairing alm…

> The reality is, if you wish to combine self reliance and minimalism, you essentially must embrace a life of poverty.

Some of the happiest days of my life have been when I labored to field dress a moose I had just shot and then canoe with it for days down an isolated river near the arctic. Or helping my brother build his house or working in the vegetable garden.

If you call that poverty, you're missing the point entirely.

I believe your disconnect comes from you thinking "The only kind of minimalism is extreme minimalism" which doesn't have to be true. I have a lot less "stuff" than most people, so I consider my self a minimalist, but I still have possessions I value and enjoy that I'm not capable of making or repairing myself (rifle, laptop). That's OK. Minimalism doesn't mean "Have nothing you didn't make with you own bare hands", it means "Have less things, and only the things that bring you happiness". Like so many things in life, it's not black and white like you're trying to make it out to be.

Re: Minimalism conceals the messy realities of society

#147

Post by stevedekorte » Sun, Apr 05, 2020, 4:25 PM UTC

DubiousPusher wrote: post #4

Two ideas which often I encounter together yet I have grown to find incompatible are self reliance and minimalism. If you wish to become more self reliant i.e. more able to handle for yourself rather than through another's labor the impositions you create in the world, you will find yourself needing to masters, access and eventual own many more tools and material. My father, a man capable of building or repairing alm…

From what I've seen, most DIY folks spend far more (and are therefore poorer) all things considered, such as time and expense of storage space for tools and what that capital could be doing otherwise over time.

Re: Minimalism conceals the messy realities of society

#148

Post by nitrogen » Sun, Apr 05, 2020, 4:28 PM UTC

_0w8t wrote: post #89

wiz21c wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> As I got more serious about cooking I donated a lot of extra pans and doo-dads. Previously, I would just collect things and as I learned more about what made something good and why, I could narrow down to 1 or 2 higher quality items (knives, pans, etc). As I learned more techniques, I needed fewer specialty items. Same experience here. Conclusion : if we'd educate people better on how to cook rather than showing t…

That is a very nice summary! By then I recently discovered utility of a special bag to bake potatoes in the microwave . It does work even if takes longer than promised 5 minutes, but the result is very tasty and I have no idea how I would reproduce it in an owen.

Wrap potatoes individually in foil, bake until you like the texture (definitely more than five minutes).

Re: Minimalism conceals the messy realities of society

#149

Post by deltron3030 » Sun, Apr 05, 2020, 4:39 PM UTC

True minimalism is functional systems thinking, e.g. planning a capsule wardrobe to save the time deciding on what to put on, while still being able to look different each day. You could combine it with shopping for different materials, like whool shirts insteaf of cotton to extend the time between washing (whool doesn't absorb bacteria/odors like cotton).

The minimalism then basically goes unoticed to the outside world, it doesn't "punish" you socially while maximizing your own time and reducing the cognitive load.

You could ditch your gym subscription and get into calisthenics/bodyweight training instead, or prepare your meals in advance. There's a lot of stuff you can do that sums up. Making those trade offs is kinda fun..

Re: Minimalism conceals the messy realities of society

#150

Post by DubiousPusher » Sun, Apr 05, 2020, 4:43 PM UTC

angrais wrote: post #76

DubiousPusher wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In this example eating unbaked grains would be the compromise to remain comparatively minimal and yet become more self reliant. Another example would be simple car maintenance. A minimalist would pay for an oil change. One may want to become more self reliant and begin changing one's own oil. In this case you will need a catch basin, a funnel, new oil and filter. You may need a jack, jack stands and a specialty wrenc…

What on earth are y'all talking about?! Buying unbaked grains to eat is to become self reliant? That's just unrealistic and makes no sense. Why not buy bread (as GP said), cut it, and freeze it? Surely that would be a minimalist approach. Minimalism is not reinventing how to do everything, but just having what's needed now. If bread is your breakfast, then it's what's needed daily. FYI: it's possible to be a mechanic…

Again, buying millet or raw wheat instead of bread is not more minimalist it is more self reliant. You are not using as much of other people's services.

Imagine instead that you grow your own wheat. You can cook the grain for hours over an open fire. And poor people did such with various grains as their daily meal for generations. That's a state that's pretty minimalist, pretty self reliant and pretty impoverished.

But if you want to make bread you must possess a mill to grind it, a source of yeast and all the other implements to make bread. To decrease your poverty you have to decrease you minimalism by owning all these things and now having them as a concern in your life or you must decrease your self reliance and depend on someone else having a mill to grind your flour or bakery to have an oven.

Trust me, as someone who is very DIY. The more self reliant you become, the less minimal your life becomes.