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Minimalism conceals the messy realities of society

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Re: Minimalism conceals the messy realities of society

#51

Post by closeparen »

DubiousPusher wrote: post #4

Two ideas which often I encounter together yet I have grown to find incompatible are self reliance and minimalism. If you wish to become more self reliant i.e. more able to handle for yourself rather than through another's labor the impositions you create in the world, you will find yourself needing to masters, access and eventual own many more tools and material. My father, a man capable of building or repairing alm…

If your possessions all have practical utility, you are already a hardcore minimalist.

No one should begrudge you a well-stocked and well-used workshop. That’s not what the minimalist message is supposed to be about. It’s the stuff accumulated carelessly, just because you could. Decorative doo-dads, outfits worn once, toys from kids long since grown, furniture retained out of a sense of duty. The suburban middle-class lifestyle I grew up in has a tendency to accumulate a monotonically increasing volume of possessions without much thought. My grandparents have more square footage than my entire apartment dedicated to the storage of useless, meaningless crap. It is, in fact, a necessary and useful message for many people to be more deliberate about what you choose to buy and retain. If the only things you can think to cut are tools, you are not one of those people.

Re: Minimalism conceals the messy realities of society

#52

Post by Hnrobert42 »

This article is an interesting book report on Longing for Less. The majority of the article is “Chayka says...”

Lacking any original insight, the author wedges in an unsupported claim about minimalism requiring privilege. Now, I’m not saying it does or doesn’t. There are several good responses here to support the idea. But the article itself does a really poor job of supporting the thesis.

Indeed, it seems more like neo-liberal buffet. It pokes at everything from the phallic shape of light-bulb (which couldn’t the just as easily be uterine) to the affluent readers of Dwell. I’m surprised a swipe at Goop didn’t get shoe-horned in.

I am as ready to damn the man as anyone, but this article is a cash grab. Bleh.

Re: Minimalism conceals the messy realities of society

#53

Post by tsimionescu »

nicbou wrote: post #49
ntsplnkv2 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Self reliance is probably more of an ideal than minimalism. It didn't take much for man to realize he could do more by trusting another than figuring out how to do everything on his own.

Any labour you pay is paid with your post-tax income, with sales tax on top. You'd need to work two hours to buy an hour of your own labour. You usually get paid for a fixed number of hours, so the time you save by hiring an expert can't be spent at work paying for it. There's usually some overhead involved too: finding labour, scheduling appointments, bringing your car to the dealership etc. Doing your own oil chang…

Sure! But a day only has 24h and you need to work, rest&relax, eat and shop somewhere in there. If a repair job costs me 1h of time or 2h's worth of labour in money, it's not clear that I can afford the 1h of literal time.

Not to mention that a job that it might take a service 1h's worth of labour to do may take me 2-3h, amortized with the learning curve (say, 4-5h first time I try, and eventually down to 1.5-2h after I've done it a few times).

Re: Minimalism conceals the messy realities of society

#54

Post by pojntfx »

As someone who identified as a minimalist until a while back, I’d argue that the primary lesson I’ve learned from it is not necessary to thrive for the minimal possible amount of items, but to _keep track_ of the things you own. I do for example have a list of all my personal belongings and update that list _before_ I ever buy something; this way you get the same benefit of “feeling in control” without having any detrimental effects on your quality of life/self-reliance.

Re: Minimalism conceals the messy realities of society

#55

Post by Xcelerate »

> Minimalism is tiny houses, floor-to-ceiling glass condos

I always see this criticism and don’t understand it. I’ve been going on ever since I was a 10 year old kid in the 90s (well before “minimalism” was trendy) about how one day I wanted a tiny, well-designed house with giant floor-to-ceiling glass windows. I think it’s natural to enjoy sunlight, so I’m not sure what the article is suggesting—that people should want tiny windows again?

Re: Minimalism conceals the messy realities of society

#56

Post by wiz21c »

pfranz wrote: post #22
DubiousPusher wrote: post #4

Two ideas which often I encounter together yet I have grown to find incompatible are self reliance and minimalism. If you wish to become more self reliant i.e. more able to handle for yourself rather than through another's labor the impositions you create in the world, you will find yourself needing to masters, access and eventual own many more tools and material. My father, a man capable of building or repairing alm…

I have noticed that people pushing minimalism...or at least the idea of "throw it away and buy it if you ever end up needing it" is a luxury that I think many people take for granted. Even if you're not privileged I think there's value in consciously assessing where in your life you want to be minimal and where you don't. I just went through my old tech stuff and recycled cellphones so old they may not even connect t…

>> As I got more serious about cooking I donated a lot of extra pans and doo-dads. Previously, I would just collect things and as I learned more about what made something good and why, I could narrow down to 1 or 2 higher quality items (knives, pans, etc). As I learned more techniques, I needed fewer specialty items.

Same experience here. Conclusion : if we'd educate people better on how to cook rather than showing them hours of advertising on the latest magical tool to cook a steak, we'd make their life easier and so much more minimalist.

So, in my experience, if you learn to cook and accept that cooking takes a bit more time you mainly need (for french cuisine) :

- 1 or 2 frying pan (buy a large one, multi-ply, heavy stuff, it's expensive : around 150 euro each, but will outlast you) - a cast iron casserole (for long cook) - just one teflon-like pan for frying fish (frying fish without that is possible but requires a lot of fat) - a few cooking pots (buy inox) - a short knife (buy expensive, around 60€, make sure the blade goes to the end of the handle) - a chef knife (ditto) - a big wooden cutting board (it allows you to use your chef knife efficiently) - 2 or three large bowls (inox or earthenware, no plastic) - a hand blender - a whisker - learn to use your oven if you have one, it's very useful - baking paper is very useful and cheap the rest just comes from regular stuff (glasses, regular knife, spoons, etc)

with that material you can go a loooooong way.

(forget about KitchenAid, Cookeo, and many other things)

etc.

Re: Minimalism conceals the messy realities of society

#57

Post by nicbou »

tsimionescu wrote: post #53
nicbou wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any labour you pay is paid with your post-tax income, with sales tax on top. You'd need to work two hours to buy an hour of your own labour. You usually get paid for a fixed number of hours, so the time you save by hiring an expert can't be spent at work paying for it. There's usually some overhead involved too: finding labour, scheduling appointments, bringing your car to the dealership etc. Doing your own oil chang…

Sure! But a day only has 24h and you need to work, rest&relax, eat and shop somewhere in there. If a repair job costs me 1h of time or 2h's worth of labour in money, it's not clear that I can afford the 1h of literal time. Not to mention that a job that it might take a service 1h's worth of labour to do may take me 2-3h, amortized with the learning curve (say, 4-5h first time I try, and eventually down to 1.5-2h afte…

You're right. In the end, it comes down to picking your battles. There's no hard rule for which battles are worth it.

I do my own motorcycle repairs, because I sometimes stray far from the nearest mechanic, and field repairs can be necessary. I also cook a lot, because I have to eat every day and restaurants are expensive.

However, I paid someone to rebuild my forks, and I buy pre-made pie shells. Those things are not worth doing myself. My father rebuilds engines in his garage, but won't change the oil on a slush-covered car. He'll pay someone else to do it.

I guess it depends on how pleasant the job is to you, how often you need it done, and how much it costs to get it done relative to your own salary.

Re: Minimalism conceals the messy realities of society

#58

Post by [deleted] »

pfranz wrote: post #41
hannob wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have noticed that people pushing minimalism...or at least the idea of "throw it away and buy it if you ever end up needing it" is a luxury that I think many people take for granted. I am inclined to disagree here and will say you're not making the full calculation. One of the biggest costs that most people have in their life is paying for a place to live (be it rent or buying and maybe paying back for that). If y…

I do think there's multiple reasons for hoarding or minimalism. I'm just saying that I've noticed more well off people in my life advocating for minimalism over the years. I do agree with your sentiment. In general, the poorer people I know aren't almost-homeless poor. Maybe they're just bad at managing everything (money, time, assets). They tend to be paying for those storage spaces. I see those storage spaces every…

[deleted]

Re: Minimalism conceals the messy realities of society

#59

Post by nicbou »

scooble wrote: post #43
DubiousPusher wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amish are definitely not minimalist. The array of tools Amish carpenters have and are skilled with is very impressive.

I wonder if minimalism is better understood as 'enough' rather than 'less'. A carpenter can have no more tools than the they need, even though that may be hundreds of tools.

It's a contentious debate. Minimalism is a large umbrella. Some people are aiming to fit everything in a backpack, and others are just trying to watch their consumption.

Re: Minimalism conceals the messy realities of society

#60

Post by bambataa »

DubiousPusher wrote: post #27
jcims wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m processing your comment because i think i agree. The problem is that ‘minimalist’ is a little squishy. It would be hard to argue that the Amish aren’t self-reliant. I’m just trying to figure out if they would be considered minimalist. They are low on consumerism, but they have sprawl. Relatively large farms with lots of animals and barns and equipment. Dunno. In my own little vision for a self reliant future i se…

Amish are definitely not minimalist. The array of tools Amish carpenters have and are skilled with is very impressive.

They might have many tools but they probably make them themselves or know by name the person who makes them. Out of close to raw material. (I’m assuming the Amish don’t mine and smelt their own metals). One modern power tool could replace many of those Amish tools but it brings with it so many more dependencies.
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