Minimalism conceals the messy realities of society • Hacker News Board

Re: Minimalism conceals the messy realities of society

#41

Post by pfranz » Sun, Apr 05, 2020, 6:44 AM UTC

hannob wrote: post #30

pfranz wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have noticed that people pushing minimalism...or at least the idea of "throw it away and buy it if you ever end up needing it" is a luxury that I think many people take for granted. Even if you're not privileged I think there's value in consciously assessing where in your life you want to be minimal and where you don't. I just went through my old tech stuff and recycled cellphones so old they may not even connect t…

> I have noticed that people pushing minimalism...or at least the idea of "throw it away and buy it if you ever end up needing it" is a luxury that I think many people take for granted. I am inclined to disagree here and will say you're not making the full calculation. One of the biggest costs that most people have in their life is paying for a place to live (be it rent or buying and maybe paying back for that). If y…

I do think there's multiple reasons for hoarding or minimalism. I'm just saying that I've noticed more well off people in my life advocating for minimalism over the years. I do agree with your sentiment.

In general, the poorer people I know aren't almost-homeless poor. Maybe they're just bad at managing everything (money, time, assets). They tend to be paying for those storage spaces. I see those storage spaces everywhere. I'm kind of curious what the average demographic is--like you say, space is expensive. I have used them, but only during transitions for a few months at a time. The terms of the contract made me think I wasn't the norm.

Your comment reminded me that my brother travels significantly more than I do, but travels with so much. I travel a few times a year, but absolutely hate having extra stuff. For me it's not about the cost of having an extra bag. It's about not wanting to wait for checked luggage, slinging around another extra bag (or just one heavier one), and not carrying it around. I'm sure he has his reasons for over-packing (perhaps being prepared, having appropriate attire means more to him), but for neither it's about the money. I'm sure for some people is is, though.

Re: Minimalism conceals the messy realities of society

#42

Post by DubiousPusher » Sun, Apr 05, 2020, 6:45 AM UTC

ntsplnkv2 wrote: post #32

DubiousPusher wrote: post #4

Two ideas which often I encounter together yet I have grown to find incompatible are self reliance and minimalism. If you wish to become more self reliant i.e. more able to handle for yourself rather than through another's labor the impositions you create in the world, you will find yourself needing to masters, access and eventual own many more tools and material. My father, a man capable of building or repairing alm…

Self reliance is probably more of an ideal than minimalism. It didn't take much for man to realize he could do more by trusting another than figuring out how to do everything on his own.

Oh I agree. I have saved a lot of money by learning to do many things and handling them myself but I depend on the same supply chains for tool parts that others do for razor cartridges.

The more I've read about the lives of 19th century pioneers the more I've realized that even they depended on something more akin to modern supply chains than on real self sufficiency.

Truly self reliant peoples live in poverty. I know no counter example.

Re: Minimalism conceals the messy realities of society

#43

Post by scooble » Sun, Apr 05, 2020, 7:16 AM UTC

DubiousPusher wrote: post #27

jcims wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m processing your comment because i think i agree. The problem is that ‘minimalist’ is a little squishy. It would be hard to argue that the Amish aren’t self-reliant. I’m just trying to figure out if they would be considered minimalist. They are low on consumerism, but they have sprawl. Relatively large farms with lots of animals and barns and equipment. Dunno. In my own little vision for a self reliant future i se…

Amish are definitely not minimalist. The array of tools Amish carpenters have and are skilled with is very impressive.

I wonder if minimalism is better understood as 'enough' rather than 'less'. A carpenter can have no more tools than the they need, even though that may be hundreds of tools.

Re: Minimalism conceals the messy realities of society

#44

Post by koonsolo » Sun, Apr 05, 2020, 7:17 AM UTC

DubiousPusher wrote: post #4

Two ideas which often I encounter together yet I have grown to find incompatible are self reliance and minimalism. If you wish to become more self reliant i.e. more able to handle for yourself rather than through another's labor the impositions you create in the world, you will find yourself needing to masters, access and eventual own many more tools and material. My father, a man capable of building or repairing alm…

I 100% agree with you. My grandparents were farmers, and they could basically fix anything that was broken. My dad is the same. But he is already in the generation where scarcity made way for abundance.

In these times, we are drowning, not starving. It's crazy how much toys my kids have and it keeps coming. They can't even find their fun toys amongst all the junk.

You can buy anything at any given moment, and people keep giving you junk on top of it, because all holidays are now commercialised and you have to give and receive junk from everyone.

For myself, I have both the "maybe I'll need it one day" and "I have too much junk".

Re: Minimalism conceals the messy realities of society

#45

Post by gitgud » Sun, Apr 05, 2020, 7:19 AM UTC

Minimalism is good for a work-place, as it helps you focus; for example clearing a room of all things except a desk, will reduce distractions and cognitive load by constantly seeing clutter... everything in moderation though...

Re: Minimalism conceals the messy realities of society

#46

Post by nicbou » Sun, Apr 05, 2020, 7:41 AM UTC

DubiousPusher wrote: post #4

Two ideas which often I encounter together yet I have grown to find incompatible are self reliance and minimalism. If you wish to become more self reliant i.e. more able to handle for yourself rather than through another's labor the impositions you create in the world, you will find yourself needing to masters, access and eventual own many more tools and material. My father, a man capable of building or repairing alm…

That's a point that keeps coming back in minimalist and travel communities.

People brag about how little they own, and it looks perfect until you ask about the logistics of it. You quickly find out that their minimalist existence is often propped by cheap third-world labour, or by a complete lack of financial planning. They don't own any of the tooks they need to fend for themselves.

In a sense, their lifestyle is only possible as other people are there to support it. Someone else has to provide the tools, and usually the expertise.

Re: Minimalism conceals the messy realities of society

#47

Post by kijin » Sun, Apr 05, 2020, 7:54 AM UTC

hannob wrote: post #30

pfranz wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have noticed that people pushing minimalism...or at least the idea of "throw it away and buy it if you ever end up needing it" is a luxury that I think many people take for granted. Even if you're not privileged I think there's value in consciously assessing where in your life you want to be minimal and where you don't. I just went through my old tech stuff and recycled cellphones so old they may not even connect t…

> I have noticed that people pushing minimalism...or at least the idea of "throw it away and buy it if you ever end up needing it" is a luxury that I think many people take for granted. I am inclined to disagree here and will say you're not making the full calculation. One of the biggest costs that most people have in their life is paying for a place to live (be it rent or buying and maybe paying back for that). If y…

You could be a hoarder in a tiny apartment, too.

Or you could be a minimalist who prefers the mostly empty feeling of a large home filled with few things, just like web designers who place huge margins everywhere.

Re: Minimalism conceals the messy realities of society

#48

Post by kepano » Sun, Apr 05, 2020, 7:56 AM UTC

The author of the book referenced in this article, Kyle Chayka, was on my podcast recently https://www.lumi.com/wellmade/110-kyle-chayka

I like that the book doesn't attach itself to any one definition of minimalism, but instead tries to explore all its definitions, what ties them together, and why we keep coming back to these ideas.

I would consider myself a lifelong minimalist, but this book challenged my notions about minimalism in many ways. It's a good read!

Re: Minimalism conceals the messy realities of society

#49

Post by nicbou » Sun, Apr 05, 2020, 7:57 AM UTC

ntsplnkv2 wrote: post #32

DubiousPusher wrote: post #4

Two ideas which often I encounter together yet I have grown to find incompatible are self reliance and minimalism. If you wish to become more self reliant i.e. more able to handle for yourself rather than through another's labor the impositions you create in the world, you will find yourself needing to masters, access and eventual own many more tools and material. My father, a man capable of building or repairing alm…

Self reliance is probably more of an ideal than minimalism. It didn't take much for man to realize he could do more by trusting another than figuring out how to do everything on his own.

Any labour you pay is paid with your post-tax income, with sales tax on top. You'd need to work two hours to buy an hour of your own labour. You usually get paid for a fixed number of hours, so the time you save by hiring an expert can't be spent at work paying for it.

There's usually some overhead involved too: finding labour, scheduling appointments, bringing your car to the dealership etc. Doing your own oil change takes less time than driving to the garage.

You don't have to do everything on your own, but I'd save the experts for the important challenges.

Re: Minimalism conceals the messy realities of society

#50

Post by UweSchmidt » Sun, Apr 05, 2020, 8:05 AM UTC

Minimalism is luxury. You know you could replace whatever you just threw out (which in turn is a way to declutter; mentally allocating money for a pair of pants to potentially replace the 3 pairs you're never wearing helps getting rid of those). You know you could go back to your parents after "selling everything and backpacking around the world). Instagram-minimalism additionally requires replacing and color-matching a lot of perfectly fine furniture, electronics and toys.

Another messy reality of society is overproduction, manifesting in that box or drawer with extra HDMI cables and USB thumb drives and USB-to-PS2 connectors, and throwing some of that crap out feels good :)