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Venezuelan ship sinks itself after ramming cruise liner with a reinforced hull

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Re: Venezuelan ship sinks itself after ramming cruise liner with a reinforced hull

#151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are no international sanctions against Syria, simply EU sanctions and US sanctions. Countries that aren't the US and in the EU don't have to abide by that any more than the US or EU has to abide by dictats Iran or Russia or China dream up. The British action, made at the behest of the US, was at least as illegal as the response it provoked.

The EU and the US comprise several nations, so why does that not make sanctions "international"? Conversely, are international sanctions ever applied by literally every nation on earth?

> The EU and the US comprise several nations, so why does that not make sanctions "international"?

For the same reason sanctions agreed on by Russia, China and North Korea (also a group comprising several nations) would not mean "international sanctions".

Not that anyone would refer to that as such anyway, of course, because we easily recognize misleading propaganda when its used by the bad guys.

> Conversely, are international sanctions ever applied by literally every nation on earth?

Nobody said literally every nation on Earth, but it should refer to more than just two political unions which are virtually joined at the hip economically, (geo)politically and even racially, and constitute a mere ~10% of the world.

UN sanctions, for example, could justifiably be called international sanctions, though there still seems no point when it's more accurate and simpler to just say "UN sanctions".

Re: Venezuelan ship sinks itself after ramming cruise liner with a reinforced hull

#152
post #63
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, less crazy than trying to ram a ship with a locomotive I suppose: https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/0... https://in.reuters.com/video/watch/idOVC7T0OCH Strange days.

haha, what's the under/over on this guy being a q-anon freak?

You and Alex agree. https://wearethene.ws/notable/94836

Re: Venezuelan ship sinks itself after ramming cruise liner with a reinforced hull

#153
post #23

This is insane. I can't imagine what was going through the Venezuelan captain's head trying to do this. It's one thing if the shooting is already started to defend yourself. But even if this stunt had worked, you're looking at many months of downtime while your ship is being repaired in drydock. Millions of dollars, and bigtime loss of capability for a small navy. Unless you are an icebreaker, you just don't intentio…

I can't imagine what was going through the Venezuelan captain's head trying to do this.

These regimes see threats behind every curtain and under every plant pot. It’s possible he really believed, or had convinced himself at least, that as the article says it was full of mercenaries planning to overthrow the regime.

Re: Venezuelan ship sinks itself after ramming cruise liner with a reinforced hull

#154
post #23

This is insane. I can't imagine what was going through the Venezuelan captain's head trying to do this. It's one thing if the shooting is already started to defend yourself. But even if this stunt had worked, you're looking at many months of downtime while your ship is being repaired in drydock. Millions of dollars, and bigtime loss of capability for a small navy. Unless you are an icebreaker, you just don't intentio…

Old timers here may recall The Cod Wars? Iceland and Britain duked it out in three major confrontations, the navies ramming each other but not firing a shot. There are some truly spectacular videos on YouTube etc.

I would recommend BBC's Seriously podcast who did an episode in october '18 about the Cod Wars.

The Icelandic trawl cutters from the conflict were a big national pride here, and growing up in Iceland in the 80's you'd hear the stories about how the Icelandic coastguard outwited the British navy recited quite often.

Re: Venezuelan ship sinks itself after ramming cruise liner with a reinforced hull

#155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US ought to invade Venezuela. It makes a whole lot more sense than invading Iraq or Syria. Venezuelans are hungry and destitute due to the regime, and the country's domestic turmoil has been spilling over into other nations where Venezuelan emigrants endure so much hardship in their travels that many of them turn to crime and panhandling just to be able to eat and have a place to sleep. It's truly disgusting the…

> The US ought to invade Venezuela. Interesting coming from someone who claims to feel for the hardships of venezuelans. > Venezuelans are hungry and destitute due to the regime They are hungry because of crippling economic sanctions. > and the country's domestic turmoil Started by foreign desire for regime change. > It's truly disgusting the kind of inhumanity that Russia and Cuba have propped up in Venezuela. They…

You're shilling for a regime that has gutted engineers and experts out of PDVSA in favor of political allies with no industry knowledge, and then claiming that the US is responsible for the extreme poverty in Venezuela that predated US sanctions by years.

Below, you are shilling for a Bolivian leader who introduced a new constitution with term limits, and then violated those term limits himself by claiming that he had a "human right" to run for reelection.

Shame on you.

Re: Venezuelan ship sinks itself after ramming cruise liner with a reinforced hull

#156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EU and the US comprise several nations, so why does that not make sanctions "international"? Conversely, are international sanctions ever applied by literally every nation on earth?

> The EU and the US comprise several nations, so why does that not make sanctions "international"? For the same reason sanctions agreed on by Russia, China and North Korea (also a group comprising several nations) would not mean "international sanctions". Not that anyone would refer to that as such anyway, of course, because we easily recognize misleading propaganda when its used by the bad guys. > Conversely, are in…

"For the same reason sanctions agreed on by Russia, China and North Korea (also a group comprising several nations) would not mean "international sanctions"."

You are saying that three nations are too few to be "international", and therefore nearly 30 must be too few also?

My general rule of thumb is that an order of magnitude often makes a meaningful difference.

Re: Venezuelan ship sinks itself after ramming cruise liner with a reinforced hull

#157
post #132
post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which elections? If you mean the ones I think you do, they were a complete farce. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential...

US is in a clear-cut info war with US citizens in order to attempt to coerce them into a war; we need to fully neuter its ability to do this to its own citizens and hold those doing it to account. This is US propaganda; end of story. Full stop. This is an attempt to facilitate a major act of violence against innocent people under the guise of a benevolent conquest in order to secure oil.

This is not true.

Go to any city or border crossing in Colombia, Ecuador, or Peru and you will find masses of Venezuelan people, many of whom are fleeing their country after having spent years selling their belongings just to have enough money to pay for food. I met a former central bank economist who was running a hamburger stand in Ecuador. I met a former marine biologist who was selling hawking at events in Peru. I met a baker who told me that his family decided to leave Venezuela when they discovered that someone broke into their bakery through a ventilation shaft just to steal some bread dough, and took nothing else -- not even cash.

When I was in Caracas five years ago, I couldn't even find a single bottle of water for sale in the airport. They just didn't have any. Believe it or not, the country has gotten worse since then.

At the time, I wondered why the US is so happy to wage simultaneous wars in the Middle East, yet would not declare a no-fly zone over Venezuela and fly airdrop missions to put food and medicine into population centers.

Venezuela is run by a bus driver. The state oil conglomerate is run by his political party, and headed by a military officer with no formal engineering, geological, or business experience.

I don't blame you for thinking everything is about oil, after what has happened in the Middle East. But Venezuela is a latch point for US adversaries like Russia to operate in the Americas, its people are starving, and the leader jokes about how Venezuelans are on the "Maduro diet" of eating nothing at all while he himself travels to Turkey to smoke cigars while Salt Bae serves up steaks. It's not a socialist country; it's a place where the government steals everything that isn't nailed down while throwing some table scraps to the military, the police, and the poorest of the urban poor...three groups that can incite fear in the rest of the citizenry.

You are quick to accuse people of distributing propaganda. However I would not be surprised, given the timing of your comment several days after this submission fell far off the HN front page, if you yourself are engaged in some kind of state-backed info war. Almost all of your comments on HN are about political positions. If you don't like accusations of nefariousness being leveled at you, then you should be mindful of your own accusations.

If in fact you are just a regular person, then think about whether your ideology is really brought to fruition in countries where kleptocratic authoritarians have unchecked power. Venezuela is not an example of socialism. Rather, it is a cesspool of cronyism.

Re: Venezuelan ship sinks itself after ramming cruise liner with a reinforced hull

#158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> Only a small part of the economic issues are caused by sanctions: Forbes is part of the pro-regime change crowd, just like the nytimes, washington post, etc. If sanctions are so neglible, then why bother with it? Let venezuela crumble on its own. Or maybe the fact that it wasn't crumbling was the reason to sanction/destabilize/destroy it? > Cuba went through the same but didn't turn out like that. Turn out like wha…

Please educate yourself.

The vast majority of sanctions on Venezuelans have been directly related to individual elites and their companies. This has nothing to do with Forbes or NYT or WP or whatever other newspaper for which you may have a distaste.

The reason that Venezuelans are starving is because the government has been confiscating private farmland for many years, since the time of Chavez. (I wonder what they are growing on that land now.) This led to a greater level of importation of food, which became unsustainable when the oil price crash of 2014 demolished an easy source of revenue for the government.

Cuba is another example of an impoverished nation in Latin America that is propped up by Russia. Nicaragua is a third.

Panama is one example of a Latin American nation that generates enormous amounts of profit based on past and ongoing US investment. Chile is another.

Even if we ignore recent protests in both countries, I would rather live in Chile than in Nicaragua.

I can tell you that for my part, I am commenting about Venezuela because the submission is a news article about Venezuela. I think that is very obvious and it is a little discouraging that you label my views as "propaganda" just because you don't like or agree with them.

Re: Venezuelan ship sinks itself after ramming cruise liner with a reinforced hull

#159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look at the Latin American countries where the US propped up dictatorships in defense against the spread of Communism. Compare those places to nations like Nicaragua and Cuba. Which are the places where people starve, and which are the places where people thrive? The problem with decrying US participation in domestic political affairs in Latin America during the Cold War is that the US was successful in fending off t…

>Today, the only observable counterfactual is a handful of paranoid, illiberal, dirt-poor nations where the government rules with an iron fist, which is certainly the case in Venezuela. Right, the rest of Latin America is doing far better than the country under decades of US economic attacks. That's why there's no immigrant problem of overly poor people from countries like Uruguay, basking in that glorious US assiste…

Venezuela has damaged its own economy, and poor countries in Latin America are usually poor from under-development, not from external suppression of existing industry.

Venezuela was a prosperous and stable country in the mid- to late- 20th century. Declining oil revenues, authoritarian dictatorship, cronyism in PDVSA, expropriation of private assets, unfettered corruption, and narco-capitalism have brought the country to where it is today. Sanctions are a response to the festering illness that has infected the Venezuelan government -- they are not the cause.

Nicaragua is an extremely poor country run by paranoid anti-American leadership that openly welcomes relationships with Russia and China, but Russia is not exactly an economic powerhouse, and China only seeks natural resources and the creation of a second canal via the destruction of Lake Managua (environment be damned).

Cuba is so destitute that its government has had to forbid its citizens from boarding boats.

(Have you ever been to Uruguay? Have you ever had a conversation with a Uruguayan person?)

It is impossible to understand Latin America without considering the effect of American imperialism. But it is also impossible to understand Latin America without considering the effect of American investment. Additionally, it is impossible to understand the mid-20th-century dictatorships that dominated the region without considering them against the backdrop of a Soviet (and then Russian) effort to challenge the interests of the US in its own hemisphere.

So, when you insinuate that the US is the cause of all poverty in Latin America, it demonstrates a one-dimensional interpretation that could never capture the complexity of the full picture.

There are immigrants from all over Latin America living in the United States, from the richest country to the poorest. They want to come to the US because of its economic opportunity, physical security, and greater freedom. I don't understand your point about Uruguay.

Re: Venezuelan ship sinks itself after ramming cruise liner with a reinforced hull

#160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look at the Latin American countries where the US propped up dictatorships in defense against the spread of Communism. Compare those places to nations like Nicaragua and Cuba. Which are the places where people starve, and which are the places where people thrive? The problem with decrying US participation in domestic political affairs in Latin America during the Cold War is that the US was successful in fending off t…

Yes look at it, Cuba has the best public health service and the lowest child mortality while in Chile people flee their college debts and there is no public health system. Nevermind the thousands of tortured, murdered and kidnapped children caused by the US baked dictatorships.

The establishment of Cuba's health service was heavily subsidized by the Soviets, as was basically everything else in Cuba during the Cold War.

Chile has private healthcare (which does not exist in Cuba) as well as taxpayer-funded healthcare programs.

I personally believe that the human right to healthcare is a corollary of the human right to life. Still, I would rather have a surgery in Chile than in Cuba.

Chile's education system has been described as the best in Latin America. And incidentally, the country offers free college tuition to the lowest three-fifths of the income spectrum (https://www.chileatiende.gob.cl/fichas/43203-gratuidad-en-la...). So I don't know what you're talking about.

I would rather get a university degree in Chile than in Cuba.

If you want to go to Cuba for your medical care and education, be my guest. We will see who is healthier and has a more productive career.

Note also that you can't compare a dollar of debt in a productive economy to a dollar of debt in a stagnant economy.

> Nevermind the thousands of tortured, murdered and kidnapped children caused by the US baked dictatorships.

When you compare something, be careful to select the appropriate counterfactual. Arbitrary imprisonment, sham trials, forced disappearances...these are historically quite common in many nations in Latin America, and certainly not unique to US-supported regimes. Nowadays, the most illiberal governments in Latin America are usually those where people are poor and political leaders rail against the USA.

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