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What's a virus, anyway? The bare-bones basics

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Re: What's a virus, anyway? The bare-bones basics

#191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My friend built a house. I wanted a house. It was easier to take the lumber from his house than cut down trees and mine iron for nails. Eating another is no different. Different life evolves to take a niche item (like grass or minerals) and turn it into something useful to them (muscle and fat) that is also useful to others.

i don't think that analogy holds up because it seems to ignore that there are other methods of obtaining energy. and your last statement isn't getting to why. it's just what happens.

the analogy seems fine to me, if a bit anthropocentric.

every living organism has some way of perpetuating itself, either by growing indefinitely or by making copies of itself. there's no reason "why", other than that organisms that can't do this get filtered out very early in the game. this implies having some sort of "strategy" for traveling up the energy gradient.

short of somehow evolving the biological capability to fuse/split atoms, all the usable energy on earth comes from the sun. so the first link in the chain has to be something like photosynthesis, where you collect and store energy directly from the sun (ie, "building a house"). but in doing this, you change the gradient, creating an opportunity for other organisms take your stored energy for themselves. in some sense, it's much "easier" for a rabbit to eat a plant in one minute than it was for the plant to collect all that energy over its entire life. there's only so much solar radiation per square meter, which limits a plants energy budget. a rabbit can eat many plants in a day, effectively multiplying the area of the solar radiation it can capture (and spend on acquiring even more). but then the rabbit creates an opportunity for a predator to harvest its stored energy and the cycle continues...

it seems like you're maybe asking "why can't all life just cooperate"? this would probably look like a planet full of plants (or a similar lifeform at a different scale). the problem is that this leaves a huge opening for the first "defector"; it's an unstable equilibrium. life does not evolve to leave opportunities on the table.

Re: What's a virus, anyway? The bare-bones basics

#192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Edit - I'll concede that analogies are absolutely fun haha. They might be useful to come up with when you yourself are trying to better understand something by drawing connections to other things you know and all. But I don't think they're ideal for being taught the subject. And again, for a layperson, analogies are totally fine if you just want a surface level understanding of "oh, mitochondrias are powerhouses of t…

Source code, but pretend there is no error correction and your logic circuit is noisy? (or the details of the error correction are murky)

or to torture the analogy further: a c++ compiler compiling itself with -03?

Re: What's a virus, anyway? The bare-bones basics

#193

> Is a virus a living thing? Maybe. Maybe Virus is akin to a SEED. Seeds are inert/dead by themselves, but it carries as all the code/DNA/instructions needed to spring to life, flourish & even reproduce infinitely when put in an friendly environment (nourished soil with water, O2 etc)

Seeds are not dead. Seeds are alive because their cells are alive. If too many of the seeds cells die then the seed can no longer germinate. That's why seeds can survive long periods of frost and stay active over very long periods, it is their cells that ensure they will be able to react to changes in the environment that suggest that the seed could germinate.

Re: What's a virus, anyway? The bare-bones basics

#195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My friend built a house. I wanted a house. It was easier to take the lumber from his house than cut down trees and mine iron for nails. Eating another is no different. Different life evolves to take a niche item (like grass or minerals) and turn it into something useful to them (muscle and fat) that is also useful to others.

i don't think that analogy holds up because it seems to ignore that there are other methods of obtaining energy. and your last statement isn't getting to why. it's just what happens.

Because the amount of energy that is available increases the further down the food chain you go. Photosynthesis provides a small amount of energy, hence why plants and plantlike organisms tend to be either totally stationary or don't move much on their own.

Organisms that consume plants are capable of more complex behaviour and growth because the amount of energy and nutrients etc. is greater that they receive by conauming things that photosynthesize.

Re: What's a virus, anyway? The bare-bones basics

#196
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd highly recommend the YouTube channel "Journey to the Microcosmos" for videos that do a great job of improving that intuition.

https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCBbnbBWJtwsf0jLGUwX5Q3g ^ here is the link. Pretty great animation. Thanks for the recommendation.

To be clear, it's not an animation, it's video captured from a microscope.

Re: What's a virus, anyway? The bare-bones basics

#197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My friend built a house. I wanted a house. It was easier to take the lumber from his house than cut down trees and mine iron for nails. Eating another is no different. Different life evolves to take a niche item (like grass or minerals) and turn it into something useful to them (muscle and fat) that is also useful to others.

i don't think that analogy holds up because it seems to ignore that there are other methods of obtaining energy. and your last statement isn't getting to why. it's just what happens.

Are there really that many other ways? Photosynthesis, sure, but that doesn't seem to produce much and doesnt allow much "liveliness".

Anyway... The 'why' is trivial-seeming to me. Once one organism can consume ready-made nutrients from another organism for less energy cost than producing, it will, or it will be out competed by others who do. So carnivores exist everywhere. Even deer happily eat baby birds that they come across, and rabbits eat their own.

Almost Tragedy of the Commons?

Re: What's a virus, anyway? The bare-bones basics

#198
post #188
post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. I'm pointing to the relativity of the term. Anything can be said to have, or not have a purpose, depending on how broadly or narrowly you scope the definition. For use in this conversation, I think it's self evident that the level of purpose exhibited by higher-complexity organisms is several orders of magnitude different than that of basic organisms. Wasn't sure if original poster would agree / disagree.

See, I think this is exactly why you are begging the question. The word purpose has lots of usages, but the one that seems to be discussed here is some intrinsic purpose that an object or creature has for existing. I can perform an action with a purpose, which is different to my (personal) purpose for being alive, which is different again for some intrinsic purpose for why I am here in the first place. It's this last…

I agree there's no universal definition of purpose in this context.

I was using purpose in my sense. Daseiner1 may use the same definition, or they may be using another. As with you.

It's useless to debate anything else until we figure that out.

---

My definition is contained in my original statement "reproduction without purpose is not life." I do not consider reproduction a purposeful action, as I define it.

It's hard to be intentional about something that forms the minimum bar of existence (immortal organisms aside).

Re: What's a virus, anyway? The bare-bones basics

#199
post #198
post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See, I think this is exactly why you are begging the question. The word purpose has lots of usages, but the one that seems to be discussed here is some intrinsic purpose that an object or creature has for existing. I can perform an action with a purpose, which is different to my (personal) purpose for being alive, which is different again for some intrinsic purpose for why I am here in the first place. It's this last…

I agree there's no universal definition of purpose in this context. I was using purpose in my sense. Daseiner1 may use the same definition, or they may be using another. As with you. It's useless to debate anything else until we figure that out. --- My definition is contained in my original statement "reproduction without purpose is not life." I do not consider reproduction a purposeful action, as I define it. It's h…

You seem to have defined (very narrowly) what life is not.

It’s also not clear if you are discussing “why I do something” (purpose of an action) or “why am I?” (purpose of me).

Re: What's a virus, anyway? The bare-bones basics

#200

> Try multiplying a billion billion billion billion by a trillion trillion trillion trillion, then multiply that by a thousand, and that (10 to the 31st power) is the mind-numbing estimate of how many individual viral particles are estimated to populate the planet. What definitions of "billion" and "trillion" are they using? 10 to the 31st would be only ten million trillion trillion, going by the common definition of…

FWIW, the article has been corrected now to read:

> Try multiplying a billion by a billion, then multiply that by ten trillion, and that (10 to the 31st power) is the mind-numbing estimate of how many individual viral particles are estimated to populate the planet.

(I can't find a "correction" notice... It's Stanford Medicine, not a proper newspaper.)

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