A New York Power Plant Is Mining $50K Worth of Bitcoin a Day • Hacker News Board

Re: A New York Power Plant Is Mining $50K Worth of Bitcoin a Day

#21

Post by zozbot234 » Sat, Apr 04, 2020, 6:06 PM UTC

Reason077 wrote: post #8

> "The plant used to only open at peak times in the summer and winter months; the new mining initiative means it now operates all year round." This is actually pretty sad. This isn't power that would otherwise be wasted: they are emitting more pollution and greenhouse gasses in order to mine Bitcoins. Bitcoin has created a perverse incentive to pollute here.

> This isn't power that would otherwise be wasted: they are emitting more pollution and greenhouse gasses

This isn't obvious to me. Natural gas is often a byproduct of extracting other resources like oil, coal etc. If it isn't used for electricity, heat, chemical feedstocks etc. it either gets flared (resulting in zero revenue) or else ends up in the atmosphere as such, with a vastly higher GHG potential compared to the CO2 equivalent.

Re: A New York Power Plant Is Mining $50K Worth of Bitcoin a Day

#22

Post by paulgb » Sat, Apr 04, 2020, 6:07 PM UTC

fermienrico wrote: post #14

speedgoose wrote: post #6

I think everyone involved in this project should be ashamed. Energy shouldn't be wasted into bruteforcing sha1 checksums of lists of transactions, a hash of a previous block to have a neat Merkle tree, and random data to find checksums starting with enough zeros. This is so unnecessary when we have global warming and much better things to do with our energy budget.

What if I told you that you can use this "useless" BTC to purchase carbon offsets, invest in renewable energy (which otherwise would have no funding), etc? Sure, money has no value when you're stuck on an island, but a bow and arrow does. Similarly, a bow and arrow has little value in Tokyo city and money does. Money is the engine that drives motivation - it can be used to compel others to do good things. Also, peopl…

> What if I told you that you can use this "useless" BTC to purchase carbon offsets, invest in renewable energy (which otherwise would have no funding), etc?

Unless they actually are using it to purchase carbon offsets, I don't see what's the point of this hypothetical?

> Also, people don't understand what Bitcoin mining in wholistic sense is.

Sure, some Bitcoin critics don't understand it well, but don't paint us all with that brush. Some of us have a very good understanding of what Bitcoin mining is and still find it tremendously wasteful.

Re: A New York Power Plant Is Mining $50K Worth of Bitcoin a Day

#23

Post by NullPrefix » Sat, Apr 04, 2020, 6:09 PM UTC

beamatronic wrote: post #11

beautifulfreak wrote: post #4

The server farm currently consumes 14 megawatts of the 106 megawatts of Greenidge's capacity. That's enough electricity to power well over 11,000 average U.S. homes.

It’s fascinating, such a machine, so much power, with no visible (tangible) output. Other than heat.

Wait, are we still talking about the economy?

Re: A New York Power Plant Is Mining $50K Worth of Bitcoin a Day

#24

Post by throwaway894345 » Sat, Apr 04, 2020, 6:09 PM UTC

jeromegv wrote: post #13

gruez wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not any different than dumping massive amounts of cyanide into the environment so we can get some shinny yellow rocks.

That doesn’t make it better. Both are bad.

You and the GP are in agreement with each other and in disagreement with the OP's claim that Bitcoin created this perverse incentive--the incentive to externalize pollution costs has its origins in the Bronze Age or sooner. Bitcoin is further exploiting this incentive.

Re: A New York Power Plant Is Mining $50K Worth of Bitcoin a Day

#25

Post by fermienrico » Sat, Apr 04, 2020, 6:10 PM UTC

paulgb wrote: post #22

fermienrico wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if I told you that you can use this "useless" BTC to purchase carbon offsets, invest in renewable energy (which otherwise would have no funding), etc? Sure, money has no value when you're stuck on an island, but a bow and arrow does. Similarly, a bow and arrow has little value in Tokyo city and money does. Money is the engine that drives motivation - it can be used to compel others to do good things. Also, peopl…

> What if I told you that you can use this "useless" BTC to purchase carbon offsets, invest in renewable energy (which otherwise would have no funding), etc? Unless they actually are using it to purchase carbon offsets, I don't see what's the point of this hypothetical? > Also, people don't understand what Bitcoin mining in wholistic sense is. Sure, some Bitcoin critics don't understand it well, but don't paint us al…

I think it is just to make a point - that BTC generated from this "wasteful" activity can be used for any purpose. It could pay off executives or the government can use it to propel society forward or offset carbon credits or build warheads. The right or wrong is not in the action of mining BTC, it is the same as any other economic acivity.

I've added some more clarity.

> Sure, some Bitcoin critics don't understand it well, but don't paint us all with that brush. Some of us have a very good understanding of what Bitcoin mining is and still find it tremendously wasteful.

By all means, expand on this and enlighten me, I am curious to hear both sides.

Re: A New York Power Plant Is Mining $50K Worth of Bitcoin a Day

#26

Post by DagAgren » Sat, Apr 04, 2020, 6:10 PM UTC

gruez wrote: post #12

Reason077 wrote: post #8

> "The plant used to only open at peak times in the summer and winter months; the new mining initiative means it now operates all year round." This is actually pretty sad. This isn't power that would otherwise be wasted: they are emitting more pollution and greenhouse gasses in order to mine Bitcoins. Bitcoin has created a perverse incentive to pollute here.

Not any different than dumping massive amounts of cyanide into the environment so we can get some shinny yellow rocks.

Gold has not been the basis of any economic system for about a hundred years.

Re: A New York Power Plant Is Mining $50K Worth of Bitcoin a Day

#27

Post by dhosek » Sat, Apr 04, 2020, 6:12 PM UTC

zozbot234 wrote: post #21

Reason077 wrote: post #8

> "The plant used to only open at peak times in the summer and winter months; the new mining initiative means it now operates all year round." This is actually pretty sad. This isn't power that would otherwise be wasted: they are emitting more pollution and greenhouse gasses in order to mine Bitcoins. Bitcoin has created a perverse incentive to pollute here.

> This isn't power that would otherwise be wasted: they are emitting more pollution and greenhouse gasses This isn't obvious to me. Natural gas is often a byproduct of extracting other resources like oil, coal etc. If it isn't used for electricity, heat, chemical feedstocks etc. it either gets flared (resulting in zero revenue) or else ends up in the atmosphere as such, with a vastly higher GHG potential compared to…

But it doesn't have to be flared or emitted immediately. There's nothing keeping them from generating less electricity now and burning the natural gas later.

Re: A New York Power Plant Is Mining $50K Worth of Bitcoin a Day

#28

Post by DagAgren » Sat, Apr 04, 2020, 6:13 PM UTC

fermienrico wrote: post #14

speedgoose wrote: post #6

I think everyone involved in this project should be ashamed. Energy shouldn't be wasted into bruteforcing sha1 checksums of lists of transactions, a hash of a previous block to have a neat Merkle tree, and random data to find checksums starting with enough zeros. This is so unnecessary when we have global warming and much better things to do with our energy budget.

What if I told you that you can use this "useless" BTC to purchase carbon offsets, invest in renewable energy (which otherwise would have no funding), etc? Sure, money has no value when you're stuck on an island, but a bow and arrow does. Similarly, a bow and arrow has little value in Tokyo city and money does. Money is the engine that drives motivation - it can be used to compel others to do good things. Also, peopl…

Not only is nobody using bitcoin for that, bitcoin is also a negative-sum game, and no actual new wealth is created. If you were going to buy those credits, you would get more if you cut bitcoin out of the equation entirely.

Re: A New York Power Plant Is Mining $50K Worth of Bitcoin a Day

#29

Post by zozbot234 » Sat, Apr 04, 2020, 6:19 PM UTC

speedgoose wrote: post #6

I think everyone involved in this project should be ashamed. Energy shouldn't be wasted into bruteforcing sha1 checksums of lists of transactions, a hash of a previous block to have a neat Merkle tree, and random data to find checksums starting with enough zeros. This is so unnecessary when we have global warming and much better things to do with our energy budget.

And yet, this "waste" of energy enables a sizeable amount of decentralized positive-sum transactions by actors who don't necessarily trust each other, and cannot always use existing (centralized) systems for this purpose. This is a socially-positive development overall.

Re: A New York Power Plant Is Mining $50K Worth of Bitcoin a Day

#30

Post by asdkhadsj » Sat, Apr 04, 2020, 6:19 PM UTC

fermienrico wrote: post #14

speedgoose wrote: post #6

I think everyone involved in this project should be ashamed. Energy shouldn't be wasted into bruteforcing sha1 checksums of lists of transactions, a hash of a previous block to have a neat Merkle tree, and random data to find checksums starting with enough zeros. This is so unnecessary when we have global warming and much better things to do with our energy budget.

What if I told you that you can use this "useless" BTC to purchase carbon offsets, invest in renewable energy (which otherwise would have no funding), etc? Sure, money has no value when you're stuck on an island, but a bow and arrow does. Similarly, a bow and arrow has little value in Tokyo city and money does. Money is the engine that drives motivation - it can be used to compel others to do good things. Also, peopl…

You raise a good point, but sidestep a good conclusion I feel like. I can agree that it is surprisingly similar. However the root of the issue is that we need to speak in terms of environmental impact to get to Revenue.

I think the (implied) argument that the GP is making is such that Bitcoin is having too large of a cost to the value add to society.

I have no idea if this is true or not. I don't even know how we can quantify environmental damage relative to revenue.