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Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

theatlantic.com

301–310 of 315 posts

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#301
I've read a small fraction of the comments here and just want to add my thoughts. Please bear in mind that I am ill educated, but well read, so have patchy knowledge at best.

The article stated that Reiki can have beneficial effects and has no harmful side effects, meaning that it can be useful as a supplement to conventional medicine. This seems reasonable to me.

Beyond that, we have all sorts of people making all sorts of claims about it in the comments here. The problem, as far as I'm concerned, is if you make a claim without a shred of evidence to back it up then you are practising religion, not science.

As far as I can tell, the best anyone can offer so far are flimsy hypotheses, with very few suggestions as to how to test them. And then they try to claim this as some actual truth.

Subtle energy? It may very well be, but you can't really offer a hypothesis and then claim it as fact.

I think people would be a little more open to these ideas if those proposing them were to be more honest and say "we have no actual idea how this works, but I'm working under the hypothesis that [x] and hope that someone can come up with some way to test if this is true at some point in the future".

There are some strong claims that patients that are given more "care" recover better than those who aren't. For example, I watched a really interesting program a while ago about using the placebo effect to help people with back problems. They took a large group of people who had ongoing back troubles and told them they were giving them a new medicine to help with back pain. Half were given the medicine and half were given the placebo, except they were all given the placebo because there was no new medicine. On top of that half out of each group were given very short, brusque, medical appointments (as we are normally used to these days) and half were given longer appointments with doctors that spent time talking to them and listening to them.

Despite everyone being given a placebo, some made really dramatic recoveries, and many made at least minor improvements. And those who were cared for more seemed to make better recoveries than those who were given short appointments.

There is so much about the placebo effect and how we can heal ourselves that we do not understand even in the slightest yet.

I could give you carrots mashed in rabbit urine and swear blind that it has been proven to cure headaches. If you reluctantly took it and your headache was gone half an hour later, well maybe it would have gone anyway, maybe it went because you believed me, and maybe I got lucky and carrots mashed in rabbit urine really does cure a headache. I know where my bet would be though. (Please don't try carrots mashed in rabbits urine, I'm not even sure it would be safe for human consumption.)

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nurse: Strength? > Doctor: 1 part in a million > Nurse: Are you sure? It looks serious > Doctor: You're right, we need to strengthen the dose: 1 part in 10 million Hah!

...and that's using numbers people can sort of begin to fathom so they can get a laugh. That's only 7X. 30C is the "OMG potent" dilution in homeopathy - and that's one part in 10^60.

The writers were being responsible. It's not safe to discuss potencies like 10^-60 that casually. People might "try it at home" and hurt themselves.

It's called homeopathy from "home" and "path", meaning "dangerous at home".

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Take “flat earth” model of the world. It’s not right, but it’s precise enough for the purposes of living in a village. Nothing wrong with that, its when you want to venture out, then you have to find a more precise one. I don’t think you have to have a more precise model. The modern world is incredibly tolerant of bad models. Last year, I visited four continents. I don’t think a single thing would have been differe…

My model is exact. I don't need my world to be round or flat. Until I do I really don't care. The superiority in this model is that it doesn't distract me from things I do care about. You just have to appreciate what little minds we have and how short it lasts. This is a human doing a puzzle with 2 parts https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4c1qhCtpAa4 This is a human doing a puzzle with 3 parts https://www.youtube.com/wa…

Number of pieces isn't strictly the source of complexity. The complexity of the pieces matters too.

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#304

Almost more interesting than Reiki itself is the reflexive responses, bifurcating essentially into: 1. it's all mumbo jumbo 2. there's more in heaven and earth, my son Note that neither group is particularly interested in the empirical evidence, though group 1 will tend to take a louder cherry-picking feint at it. An empiricist mindset is really hard for humans to inhabit. We (scientistic hard-heads included) judge p…

My reflexive reaction is: I don't know. I'm not interested in empirical evidence but if there is evidence of some effect I hope the right people show an interest in it. I keep wondering what the big deal is with admitting you don't know something. I don't know C++, I should have an opinion about some C++ library? Does it work or not? When asked to defend my opinion about Reiki I would have to resort to a completely m…

One day you might be sick and having a opinion will be important.

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#305
post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fringe theories generally can't be conclusively disproven, so if that's your bar, it's an unachievable one. E.g., are infectious diseases really all caused by evil spirits? Maybe! Might it also be miasmas? [1] Could be! But now that we have ideas like "bacterium" and "virus", we we don't need those models to explain and treat diseases. So the "evil spirits" has mostly (but not entirely!) faded, and I think miasma the…

Perfect, a bad faith argument from authority. Thank you. >In the 1970s ESP got a lot of attention. As did things like remote viewing. There was a definite fad for those concepts, and there was significant academic interest and funding. But nobody had any replicable results, so it all faded away I don't think so. Here's a list of peer-reviewed journal articles from 1964 onwards, including some replication studies: htt…

It's definitely not bad faith. But I get to choose how to spend my time. I've looked into a bunch of fringe stuff over the years. I've got better things to do now. I am interested in changing my mind, but I have reasonable confidence that slight variations on old shticks aren't going to do it. There are more interesting things for me to explore.

I'm sure the same is true for you. Are you busily looking into each of the latest QAnon theories? Are you carefully investigating every alternative remedy somebody is selling? Have you carefully listened to somebody from every sect of every religion? Nah. It's not even possible to be as open-minded to everything as you want me to be to your personal pet thing.

I'll note that you aren't willing to put in any work learning enough about past paranormal fads to explain why your personal fave is any different than previous ones. It seems odd that you expect me to do a bunch more work than you're willing to do yourself.

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#306
post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for saying so. My response there stands. Neurotypical humans anthropomorphize things excessively. So much so that whole societies get built around perception of pervasive mind, from the Greek gods and the Hindu pantheon to Christian and Muslim single pervasive intelligences to Mesmer's magnetism and the Jedi force. A lot of minds just like the idea that minds are fundamental The obvious explanation for Radin's…

Have you been able to disprove that mind is fundemental?

Tell you what. You first prove that the Greek gods aren't what's really fundamental and then we'll talk.

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#307
post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just as background, I've been doing yoga and meditation for decades. I think the phenomena that people experience as "subtle energy" are interesting and are worth investigating. But my best guess is that these are purely internal phenomena. As eusocial primates with poor internal perception, it's easy for us to mistake internal phenomena as objective. For example, people who think they know what God wants -- who are…

>> What if there are some things where scientific objectivity and scientific method breaks down, and is incapable of exploring? > Then that's a thing you can demonstrate. Then you are more clever than I am. I have no idea how to test some of this stuff, let alone do it with double-blind study. It isn't as if science is incomprehensible to me. I understand and apply the scientific method, have run experiments. I also…

That you don't understand how to test something isn't evidence of anything at all.

> Some of the phenomena won't happen if there is too much disbelief in it. Do you have any ideas on how to experiment with stuff like this?

That right there is a testable proposition. Put somebody in a soundproof, lightproof room who can reliably experience the phenomenon. Randomly surround them with groups of believers, disbelievers, or nobody at all. Repeat until you have a large N. If the phenomenon happening is truly sensitive to disbelievers, you should see clear correlations.

More broadly, there's a long, long history of people making claims of mental phenomena and constructing tests of those claims. So it's not me you should be asking. It's the broader literature. And the rise of things like EKGs, fMRIs,and TMS means we're opening up all sorts of new ways to test claims about mind.

If you're serious about claiming these are objective phenomena and that your model for them has more explanatory power, then you should jump in and start doing that work. And if not, maybe just stick to being honest by using phrases like "I once experienced" and "I believe".

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#308

"Over the past two decades, a number of studies have shown that Reiki treatments help diminish the negative side effects of chemotherapy, improve surgical outcomes, regulate the autonomic nervous system, and dramatically alter people’s experience of physical and emotional pain associated with illness." The article links, with the phrase "a number of studies" to what seems to be one study [1]. In this study it looks l…

The links are to two studies:

* A Large-Scale Effectiveness Trial of Reiki for Physical and Psychological Health. / Dyer NL, Baldwin AL, Rand WL.

* Effects of Reiki on Autonomic Activity Early After Acute Coronary Syndrome / Rachel S.C. Friedman, Matthew M. Burg, Pamela Miles, Forrester Lee and Rachel Lampert

The first study is indeed suspicious in that the tested population are Reiki believers/supporters who are obviously motivated to declare it to have had a positive effect. The second study has a much more limited scope.

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#309
post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I dream of an economic system that serves human beings instead of the numerical abstractions behind which the rich and powerful hide their extreme selfishness. This is what capitalism is in its essence - a complex decentralised pricing mechanism where every human's choices is taken into account on the free market. The problem is that it has been corrupted by cronyism which has indirectly destroyed the human element…

When it's good we call it self-interest. When it's bad we call it cronyism. We define capitalism in terms of markets because we would rather not discuss the more fundamental question of who owns what. When capitalism produces spectacular exaggerations of human cruelty, it has been corrupted. When a socialist system produces it, it is intrinsic.

> When capitalism produces spectacular exaggerations of human cruelty, it has been corrupted. When a socialist system produces it, it is intrinsic.

Nobody blame socialism for cruelty in good faith. Cruelty has nothing to do with economic system.

What socialism (or any government trying to replace or severely restrict private sector) really does way more worse is empty shelves, deficit and terrible recourse misallocation.

There are more fundamental questions than the leisure ones like "who ownes what". Such as how come my parents lived in the second largest economy in terms of GDP and only few years later the whole country had nothing to eat, and we had a humanitarian crisis without any war or natural calamity.

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#310
The article asks:

> “Why do we have a problem accepting when somebody says, ‘I feel better; that helped’?”

And the answer is:

1. Because they are often sent to say that by interested parties and maybe have their own biases (e.g. hoping the treatment to succeed, because that means their life will improve).

2. Because the people who don't feel better don't typically go around telling you about it.

3. Because feeling is subjective and fluctuates; and while it has its own significance, it is often independent of the state of underlying physiological conditions.

4. Because of past (collective) experience with many kinds of supposed cures or treatments which ended up not helping, or marginally helping, or having detrimental effects which weren't taken into account.

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