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Zoom rolled their own encryption scheme, transmit keys through servers in China

citizenlab.ca

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Re: Zoom rolled their own encryption scheme, transmit keys through servers in China

#251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's definitely a terrible choice for uncompressed images or video. I'm arguing it probably isn't that bad for highly compressed video. That being said, if you're encrypting any data stream you should use an appropriate stream cipher.

You're forgetting about the technical intricacies of compressed video. Compressed video is a mix of high and low entropy content, with a predictable time pattern to this. For example, one can easily use traffic analysis to find B-Frames, and run analysis on that. Bam, you get very low entropy due to the stationary nature of video conference.

Yeah, the B-frames were my thought too, but ordinary sensor noise would hopefully make the individual frames different enough. If you’re doing green-screen background switching, or transmitting a static image then it’s definitely going to be a problem.

But given all the other security issues that seem to hover around Zoom like a cloud of angry bees, this is probably all moot - if you really want to crack a video stream then there are probably easier ways.

Re: Zoom rolled their own encryption scheme, transmit keys through servers in China

#252

The serverside key handling stuff is bad, but generally known (Zoom has features whose natural implementation require them to keep keys serverside). People are dunking on Zoom for rolling their own crypto and coming up with AES-128-ECB. This is also bad, but people should be aware that it's a lot more complicated than "you can see penguins through it". You can see penguins through an ECB-encrypted bitmap because disc…

This is a really well written post that makes some valuable arguments.

For me, the main reason using ECB makes me distrust a service is that it could be a canary for "we don't have anyone who understands security working here", and it increases my prior that they're also doing other dumb things like reusing keys, or not securely distributing them in the first place.

Lack of end-to-end is bad, but in a situation with more than two participants it's not an easy problem and when some of them are dialing in from landlines then one of your endpoints has to have a key anyway, unless I'm missing something? [edit - was addressed in first paragraph]

Re: Zoom rolled their own encryption scheme, transmit keys through servers in China

#253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Informed speculation is all I have. I will say in passing that it's weird to keep picking VBR AAC in your examples, the document says they used SILK, which would make sense because SILK was designed (by Skype many years ago) for this application. AAC is from a different era (it turns out we were trying to be too clever back then) and targets a different application. This bothers me because even if ECB was good enough…

Everything that isn't authenticated (like CTR mode, which is what was supposedly "recommended" here) admits the potential of an oracle attack, so what's interesting to me here is what's distinctively bad about ECB in this setting. And: I'm not saying ECB is OK in this setting. I'm saying "it's not PenguinVision simple" and "what makes it not OK is probably interesting". You know more about the codec situation here th…

> CTR mode, which is what was supposedly "recommended" here

Where are you getting this recommendation? Who recommended it - to Zoom? And when?

> You know more about the codec situation here than I do. So, you tell me! What should I be looking at?

If you're prepared to be at least slightly interested in problems even if ECB only contributes rather than blowing them wide open, then maybe you should look at H.264 I-frames first.

An I-frame stands on its own. For example the WebP image format is essentially just one I-frame from VP8. If the scene is literally unchanged from one I-frame to the next, all the exact same image data must be re-encoded, and logically (if the codec is at all efficient) that means the same bytes.

[ If you just don't use I-frames then all loss becomes unrecoverable and people will stop saying your product "Just works". In products like a DVD or Netflix I-frames are needed to make it "seekable". This is obviously not a necessity in a video conference, but the ability to handle network glitches and to add/ remove participants seamlessly is a requirement ]

So with ECB for I-frames clearly we can tell if nothing changed. Maybe an artificially lit meeting room with nobody in it, a desk left unmanned. Or a screen share left showing an unchanging desktop. Is that a "useful" thing for eavesdroppers to learn? Do you think Zoom users would be surprised that eavesdroppers can tell their colleagues took a coffee break?

But because codecs like H.264 are oriented around square blocks I suspect we can do better. They're not deliberately trying to have these blocks encode to exactly 16 bytes and so mostly they won't, but of course one chance in 16 isn't nothing and we get to try every I-frame. Probably not to the point of getting a blocky outline of a moving person on a stream (which is sad because I'm pretty sure that, like the Penguin, would make the point viscerally) but enough to have some idea which parts of a scene (or a slide deck) are changing.

Re: Zoom rolled their own encryption scheme, transmit keys through servers in China

#254
post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While you wait for his response: https://www.newyorker.com/news/letter-from-silicon-valley/th...

At first, the site attracted about sixteen hundred daily visitors, and Graham moderated and maintained it himself. Today, around five million people read Hacker News each month, and it’s grown more difficult to moderate. The technical discussions remain varied and can be insightful. But social, cultural, and political conversations, which, despite the guidelines, have proliferated, tend to devolve. A recent comment t…

I think the view is accurate from high enough, but experience depends a lot on some element that's probably time and possibly the alignment of the planets. You can tell when Mercury is in Gatorade.

Sometimes people are really cool. Sometimes people are fools. The fools make good points sometimes. The cool people can be the worst. The roles are fluid. I've had my fool moments.

dang, who I assume is a cyborg driven by several different mods, generally makes good calls. There aren't many places online where I feel like I can point out a problem to the mods and not worry about being called an idiot. Or banned.

Re: Zoom rolled their own encryption scheme, transmit keys through servers in China

#255
post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's possible to avoid politics in any profession. Teachers care about education reform, which is a political subject. Doctors care about the healthcare system, which is a political subject. Civil engineers care about building codes and safety regulations, which are political subjects. Accountants care about tax laws, which are an incredibly political subject. Social workers care about welfare programs,…

I don't express my political beliefs here because I think I would be massively down voted. I think that's true for lots of other users.

The way it's presented makes a huge difference. People are obliterated for any political opinion if presented in a way that treats politics like a game instead of something that affects everyone.

Make a polite, clear-headed enough argument for something like eugenics and people will upvote you. It's troubling, but I can make a pro-socialism post under the same conditions. It's an uneasy peace.

Re: Zoom rolled their own encryption scheme, transmit keys through servers in China

#256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At first, the site attracted about sixteen hundred daily visitors, and Graham moderated and maintained it himself. Today, around five million people read Hacker News each month, and it’s grown more difficult to moderate. The technical discussions remain varied and can be insightful. But social, cultural, and political conversations, which, despite the guidelines, have proliferated, tend to devolve. A recent comment t…

>The site’s now characteristic tone of performative erudition—hyperrational, dispassionate, contrarian, authoritative—often masks a deeper recklessness. Ill-advised citations proliferate; thought experiments abound; humane arguments are dismissed as emotional or irrational. Logic, applied narrowly, is used to justify broad moral positions. The most admired arguments are made with data, but the origins, veracity, and…

Would still be interesting if someone could train language / interaction model on different years of hacker news to see how a certain topic would be discussed differently over the years.

Re: Zoom rolled their own encryption scheme, transmit keys through servers in China

#257

Using AES in ECB mode is clearly a bad choice, but honestly it's not that horrible for high entropy data like compressed audio/video. I'm sure someone could prove me wrong one day, but it seems hard to extract any useful patterns out of compressed audio/video. It does check the box of "uses encryption" for regulatory reasons (while missing the intent). It's pretty egregious considering how easy this is to get right.…

Is it just me to whom it seems obvious why they've gone with ECB? Zoom's design has a single key for everybody and for everything [ in the context of a particular video conference call ] . It's simpler and, to a layman, it sounds secure. [ We arguably contribute to this if we say e.g. "the key" implying it's just one thing when we mean something like a master secret in TLS used to derive lots of actual keys ]. Once y…

That whole argument would make sense if there was not a standardized solution to the problem:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secure_Real-time_Transport_Pro...

I would like to hear the explanation for why they did not use SRTP, though I suspect the answer is, "We had no idea it existed."

Re: Zoom rolled their own encryption scheme, transmit keys through servers in China

#258
post #63
post #2

This is honestly the best “Zoom is bad” summery I’ve seen so far. While I certainly believe some of the Zoom hate is blown out of proportion, this article does a good job explaining to someone who isn't a security expert what the issues are. I've been getting questions about the company from family and friends, and will be forwarding this to them. Well done.

This is a great article, but as an educational provider it fails to answer one question: Why should I care? The only concerning thing for me is, why would they lie about using AES-256 when none of my users (and I assume most of their users) would care in any way about AES-256 vs. AES-128 in ECB mode. Why would they lie? Even after this, having my users conducting university lessons over something that might be decryp…

The students log in via email and from home, they both count as personal identifiers.

Now, China knows who is attending which lesson. And how much activity each individual shows. And also, what happens on the side like environment sounds, environment at the camera (e.g., how generous the student's apartment is). Also, the client can analyze the mouse cursor movement, see what other apps are running and how (on native clients), and on mobile clients there is for example the gravitational sensor.

Moreover, a voice (and the face, of course) is like a fingerprint of a person. Hence you now have a reverse lookup table from voice/face to person.

Re: Zoom rolled their own encryption scheme, transmit keys through servers in China

#259
post #231
post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find that the opposite is true. Most comments are emotional, and I have to search for controversial comments to find anything objective/worth reading. Like Reddit, this site is biased to the political left (USA). I wish we could just avoid all politics in tech.

I don't think it's possible to avoid politics in any profession. Teachers care about education reform, which is a political subject. Doctors care about the healthcare system, which is a political subject. Civil engineers care about building codes and safety regulations, which are political subjects. Accountants care about tax laws, which are an incredibly political subject. Social workers care about welfare programs,…

> You could even argue that being "apolitical" actually means that your political opinion is that the status quo is acceptable

I agree with this. I see Cultural Hegemony (domination-justification stories) being very strong in unexpected places. Family members or close friends who indirectly benefit from the artificial scarcity mechanisms (in SV especially Intellectual Property) that make up the various social class realities of rentier capitalism [1]. What seperates me and a mother of three in Bangladesh, who is getting paid starvation wages making the designer clothes I wear [2], is that I was lucky enough to have been born in the global North, in an upper-middle class family. I was able to grow up on the inside of the fort, and benefit from a rich inheritance [3].

[1] https://www.resilience.org/stories/2017-08-03/book-day-corru...

[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OaGp5_Sfbss

[3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGnDDhco4gw

Re: Zoom rolled their own encryption scheme, transmit keys through servers in China

#260
post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn’t Germany have specific data privacy laws based on the massive surveillance state that operated in the East up through 1990 or so? And you’re not concerned with using services that go through a country that, by all accounts, is trying to outdo the old Stasi with modern technology?

Zoom claims to be GDPR compliant ( https://zoom.us/de-de/gdpr.html ). Frankly, ensuring a company claims compliance is as far as I can go. I'm still hoping that if a company intentionally lies about this they will get sued out of existence. If I'm wrong about this the GDPR is worthless anyway and there isn't really anything I can do.

The problem is, you are right. In practice, many companies say "well, it is compliant, but we don't care about the rest as long as we can function".
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