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Introduction to Permaculture (1994)

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Re: Introduction to Permaculture (1994)

#51

Post by SuoDuanDao »

numbsafari wrote: post #20

I enrolled my wife and I in a local Permaculture Design Course as part of a Christmas present (she got us into bees last year). Unlike most 2-week intensives, ours is taught every other weekend for about 3 months. I think many people here on HN would be interested in permaculture. There’s a lot of the same design and systems thinking that appeal to computer programmers. As noted by others, permaculture is also really…

Not quite what you're asking, but on a tangential note, I've found the 12 principles can be adapted to almost any complex system. I had a decent amount of success applying them to my jiujitsu class, so there may be a way to employ them in tech as well.

Re: Introduction to Permaculture (1994)

#52

Post by noobdood »

joshvm wrote: post #48
noobdood wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, maybe it is to lessen the load on the server from any one user during any given period. Makes sense if so. I'm assuming here that one reads online, rather than, say, downloading a PDF or other file of each book.

I think it's more likely to satisfy copyright law otherwise you'd just be downloading books for free. You can use Adobe Digital Editions which handles the DRM, so you can read offline as well. Online works too. I've not used it much, I think some books have limited copies available to borrow as well so you may need to join a waitlist.

Thanks.

Re: Introduction to Permaculture (1994)

#53

Post by noobdood »

ryukafalz wrote: post #47
noobdood wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, maybe it is to lessen the load on the server from any one user during any given period. Makes sense if so. I'm assuming here that one reads online, rather than, say, downloading a PDF or other file of each book.

No, it’s a DRM restriction - you can download a DRM-locked copy that disables itself after a set time, and while you have it checked out nobody else can read that “copy.” Nothing to do with server load.

Thanks.

Re: Introduction to Permaculture (1994)

#54

Post by kyuudou »

nickbauman wrote: post #46
whatshisface wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The term "organic" is especially dangerous, because of its connotation to organic vs. inorganic chemistry and the loss of information when converting between the technical definitions and cultural perceptions. In the United States, "organic" in the context of food is not a cultural perception, it is an FDA-regulated certified word with a very strict definition and penalties for misuse. https://www.ams.usda.gov/abou…

There's a guy who's a convicted felon in the US for misrepresenting conventional as organic: https://thecounter.org/organic-food-fraud-usda-doj-randy-con...

Wow, that's terrible the path that he chose but aside from that, I am glad to see legal precedence laid out for this because I know damn well others are trying to be bad actors about this.

People I trust to know these things have always said the USDA-certified Organic label is pretty legit.

Re: Introduction to Permaculture (1994)

#55

Post by Jedd »

gdubs wrote: post #35
mikorym wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think permaculture has more to do with culture than it has to do with agriculture. What I mean by this is that agriculture has become, nowadays, the increasingly scientific study of how how to produce the highest yields for crop types that have the highest return on investment for that area. The naming conventions of how practices are done do not influence the practices themselves. The reason why I bother to make t…

This is a really insightful take. I’ve read a lot of books influenced by Mollison, and they’re all heavy on the agricultural side. Finally reading the original and it’s clear that as you say, it’s more about the whole cultural system — community, etc. With everything that’s been happening, I’ve been thinking a lot about “resilience”, and how it really begins at the household level and goes upwards from there to commu…

Can recommend you read some of David Holmgren's works then -- he's very deeply considered the culture and principles side of the work he and Mollison pioneered.

Note that he went and actually applied permaculture at at Melliodora.

Re: Introduction to Permaculture (1994)

#56

Post by Jedd »

fouc wrote: post #5

It's interesting that Permaculture is already more than 26 years old. It's got quite a number ideas that probably seem very controversial to the average gardener or small farmer. But the genius of Permaculture is that it's also way less effort. Work with nature, rather than fight it. Chop and drop. Pull out weeds then drop them on the ground, let it turn into mulch.

> It's interesting that Permaculture is already more than 26 years old.

It's interesting that, while the statement is technically true, you pick the number 26.

Bill Mollison & David Holmgren published 'Permaculture One - A Perennial Agriculture for Human Settlements' in 1978.

So it's not only more than 26 years old, it's also more than 41 years old.

Re: Introduction to Permaculture (1994)

#57

Post by Jedd »

mceoin wrote: post #11
blunte wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> seem very controversial It's just a matter of experience and perspective. Many of the permaculture principles have been practiced since long before industrialization. In the scale of human existence, the current "normal" agriculture practices are abnormal, while permaculture is normal. Also, don't cut the weeds unless you have a very good reason. Even the definition of "weed" is questionable. Most of the time, the…

Totally agree. "Permaculture" was really just Mollison - a genius and veteran biologist - collating all the best practices and strategies he had observed from land-based cultures, then codifying this knowledge of what works. (Hence, "permanent agriculture".) It couldn't be less controversial.

> "Permaculture" was really just Mollison ...

It really wasn't.

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/3961757-permaculture-one

Re: Introduction to Permaculture (1994)

#58

Post by rdtwo »

A lot of permaculture seems like bullshit science. It’s hard to tell if what they recommend actually does anything and certain technique that have been recommended are actually proven harmful and ineffective. Because of that I really have a hard time getting behind the movement.

Re: Introduction to Permaculture (1994)

#59

Post by mikorym »

kyuudou wrote: post #54
nickbauman wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a guy who's a convicted felon in the US for misrepresenting conventional as organic: https://thecounter.org/organic-food-fraud-usda-doj-randy-con...

Wow, that's terrible the path that he chose but aside from that, I am glad to see legal precedence laid out for this because I know damn well others are trying to be bad actors about this. People I trust to know these things have always said the USDA-certified Organic label is pretty legit.

My issue with the USDA-certified organic label is not that their label is not well-defined, but rather that the definition is not necessarily in line with 1) what you expect healthy food to be or 2) what the most sustainable approach would be or the most recent research suggests.

To give you an example, weather driven modelling in conventional agriculture has the potential to make a massive difference in, for example, pesticide application. But if you use less pesticides as part of your daily routine, that does not mean that you have the right sticker or label to represent your produce and your incremental improvements. The reason why I say this is that pesticide should be applied at a very precise point of the target organism's life cycle, but it is not always possible for the farmer to do it without considerable new added effort.

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