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Private Equity Wants in on the Bailout? Spare Me

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Re: Private Equity Wants in on the Bailout? Spare Me

#101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm really curious what your point is, since the willingness of capital markets to extend financing seems like it'd be very related to a company's capital structure and leverage. Like, were the businesses in question not over leveraged, they'd find it much easier to find the capital to continue operations during a downturn.

> extend financing seems like it'd be very related to a company's capital structure and leverage This seems intuitively appealing, but is misleading. The Nobel-prize winning work of the Modigliani-Miller Theorem[1] that a firm's capital or leverage ratio does not prima facie have any impact on its weighted-average cost of capital. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modigliani–Miller_theorem

Well, you have to take into account more stuff than what's one the prima facie, like when all businesses have to run on 1/3 revenue, and (like in the example in the link) can't even afford the interest payments that are due. That tends to make capital more expensive.

Re: Private Equity Wants in on the Bailout? Spare Me

#102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Saddled with as much debt as possible, the business by design has been put in a position such that it cannot survive even a modest decline in revenue without raising significant additional capital. I agree, but I think it's important to qualify what you mean when you say the "business can't survive". Because this implies that if a company can't meet its debt obligations that it will cease operations. As long as ope…

I'm really curious what your point is, since the willingness of capital markets to extend financing seems like it'd be very related to a company's capital structure and leverage. Like, were the businesses in question not over leveraged, they'd find it much easier to find the capital to continue operations during a downturn.

Financing isn't related to capital structure or leverage.

Your assumption is kind of predicated on the belief that people lending to PE are making rational choices...they aren't.

The reason why LBOs took off was because S&Ls needed high-yield paper (and, to a lesser extent, there was a big buildup of Middle Eastern funds in US banks). All these deals allow the lender to risk up their portfolio, and take (in retrospect) equity risk. If you were an LBO firm, you can just sit there, create this paper...maybe it works out, it probably doesn't, and (tbh) you don't care because you get fees either way (most PE firms aren't really fund managers, they generate transaction fees for principals...that is why they employ bankers, instead of people with any experience of business). Btw, if this isn't convincing this same dynamic also caused a bubble in emerging market debt (i.e. banks needed high yield paper, bankers went to EM govts and got it).

And in a downturn, this process goes into reverse. People rush into cash, and sell whatever is liquid. It isn't anything close to rational (I feel like this should be obvious, I am seeing stocks with close to monopoly positioning selling at 3x earnings...is that rational?).

Now, the complexion of these deals has changed but what really drives finance is supply and demand. Another good example is CDOs, that was all supply-driven...banks wanted paper (there was a huge build up of dollars in exporters like Germany/Japan...China too but the state controlled dollars domestically), Basel rules meant there had to be some trickery i.e. banks needed to say CDOs were AAA but there was not enough AAA supply so CDOs had to convert junk into debt...but the point is...they needed the paper, so it was supplied. Totally irrational, no-one looked or cared about fundamentals but...the fundamentals don't really matter. Liquidity drives everything (if you have liquidity, you buy anything...if you don't, you sell anything).

Btw, understanding this is pretty key to successful investing. Once you realise what is occurring, investing is fairly straightforward. It is only when people try to introduce artificial concepts like rationality that they lose money in large sums.

Re: Private Equity Wants in on the Bailout? Spare Me

#103
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Capitalism is itself a pure unadulterated implementation of Matthew's effect. If you have capital of $X, you automatically are entitled increase in that $X. If you have $0 then you work day after day to find your share of global wealth keeps dipping. This is typically gets sold as "risk vs reward" system while the fact is that if you had invested in S&P500, your investment is practically protected by the US Army and…

Your premise just isn't true. A significant majority of Americans have investments in the stock market.

While that may be true, 1% of Americans hold 50% of total US equities. The wealth gap is wider than it has been in 130 years, that is not good.

Re: Private Equity Wants in on the Bailout? Spare Me

#104
post #79
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ideally, there would be a 3rd path, which would be direct forgiveness of those debts for a small period. All creditors would take the haircut, instead of the debtors. this means that incoming money would go back into the productive economy. The odd thing about bailouts is that if you bailout businesses, they can't really spur consumer demand, and if you give it to individuals it tends to end up re-concentrated in the…

> ideally, there would be a 3rd path, which would be direct forgiveness of those debts for a small period. All creditors would take the haircut, instead of the debtors. this means that incoming money would go back into the productive economy. Isn't bankruptcy exactly this, on a firm level?

In a bankruptcy, the stock-owners lose all their equity, and the bond-holders take a hit. The parent appears to be proposing that the bond-holders take a hit, in an attempt to preserve some equity for the stock-owners.

Re: Private Equity Wants in on the Bailout? Spare Me

#105
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These two options for saving the economy: corporate bailout vs social safety net essentially correspond with belief in trickle down vs Keynesian stimulus. Stated even more bluntly, it is essentially whether you believe customers or assets are most important for business. It is why the current path begins to resemble 1929 where consumer buying power spiraled downward. If the social isolation period ends with millions…

"Trickle down stimulus" is not an economic theory. It's a criticism of supply side economics, equivalent to calling Keynesian economics "money printer go brrr" stimulus. Arguably, corporate bailouts like we're seeing now ARE a Keynesian stimulus because they're meant to keep businesses afloat while consumer demand has fallen off a cliff so that they can continue to do business (i.e. maintain demand for business input…

> all the debt we've created to fuel these policies will need to be paid back, either explicitly or implicitly through inflation.

And if you've been watching prices for staples or the big mac index, prices have already reflected inflation from the last decade's worth of quantitative easing. I left a cushy fed job with a full secret clearance because of the TARP bailout back in 2008 and they are about to do the same thing in spades again, ugh. They should've just let Goldbag Sacks and the rest of their filthy lot fail, let the economy feel the recession pain like it's supposed to and let a reset happen. I don't really want to see the other side of this one. For sure I'm not saving too many USD in 0% interest accounts...

Re: Private Equity Wants in on the Bailout? Spare Me

#106
post #27

If the real goal here is to save jobs, this is all completely irrelevant.

Has PE had a history of net job gain, or at the very least saving the jobs that were already there? My impression, without any data on hand, is that PE firms tend to reduce the number of jobs overall.

As much crap as Michael Milken has gotten, I agreed what he said on junk bonds: Dollar by dollar, junk bonds did create a lot jobs. They funded risky businesses, in the same way venture capital does today. Problem arises when they are used in deceptive ways.

Re: Private Equity Wants in on the Bailout? Spare Me

#107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> on any bailout, massively cram down the equity holding of the PE firm(s) and all executives by issuing new shares to every other stakeholder besides them, including other shareholders IMO that's a step to far, and is a totally uneven punishment depending on how shares are held. Just make them give the government equity (or options) as part of the bailout that would dilute all existing shareholders. Executives aren'…

This is exactly the type of bailout Germany is considering. Maybe it's better than giving a loan (certainly better than handing out free money), but also creates an incentive for the government to invest a lot of money and political good will into the company afterwards so its shares won't become worthless, which can be dangerous if others are still calling the shots, because those are suddenly motivated to take way…

germany is certainly more advanced than the US in regard to responsible corporate governance.

governments taking equity positions in corporations can be bad because of the risk of corruption, self-dealing, and regulatory capture, not the principal-agent and subsequent sunk-cost risks you mention, imho.

unlike other shareholders, governments aren't strongly motivated by attaining the largest return for themselves, particularly since taxes and bonds are much easier revenue sources. and in crisis, the government has the negotiating leverage to stipulate stricter conditions upfront that aren't normally part of non-crisis investments.

Re: Private Equity Wants in on the Bailout? Spare Me

#108
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These two options for saving the economy: corporate bailout vs social safety net essentially correspond with belief in trickle down vs Keynesian stimulus. Stated even more bluntly, it is essentially whether you believe customers or assets are most important for business. It is why the current path begins to resemble 1929 where consumer buying power spiraled downward. If the social isolation period ends with millions…

>Stated even more bluntly, it is essentially whether you believe customers or assets are most important for business. No I think the last four words of this quote are the problem. This needs to be more about humans and less about corporate entities. And I'm not talking socialism here. We just need to move away from economy = listed companies and more towards economy is the aggregate of people's actions. >These two op…

>>Keynesian fiscal stimulus is a decision by the government to increase government spending financed by government borrowing

>Quite a far stretch equating those.

In reality it really isn't.

Re: Private Equity Wants in on the Bailout? Spare Me

#109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Marx's observations need incredibly severe adaptations. By Marx's original standards, Uber drivers should be some of the least exploited workers in the world - they own the means of production!

I know that you know this is a stupid point that can only be reached by reading Marx in the most obtuse way possible.

I don't know that. I'm aware that a lot of modern people do take Marxism to be a kind of vague position that wealth is bad and poor people are great, but I think they're wrong. What I've read of Marx makes it very clear that he's talking about the industrial labor class of his time, which really was terribly exploited in ways we've since eliminated.

Re: Private Equity Wants in on the Bailout? Spare Me

#110
post #4

>But do they really deserve any part in a bailout? Do any of these companies? The whole concept of bailouts create bad incentives - to me that's more the crux of the issue. But if you're gonna do them anyway then I see little justification for including/excl some just because they're listed vs private. Plus it makes way more sense to "save" the economy at grass roots level anyway. I'd prefer more of a suddenly expand…

These two options for saving the economy: corporate bailout vs social safety net essentially correspond with belief in trickle down vs Keynesian stimulus. Stated even more bluntly, it is essentially whether you believe customers or assets are most important for business. It is why the current path begins to resemble 1929 where consumer buying power spiraled downward. If the social isolation period ends with millions…

"trickle down" isn't a real thing, it's just a pejorative used against supply side economics, which is a mainstream economic view.

The basic account of "trickle-down economics", goes something like this. When you give a tax cut to a rich guy, he uses the money to buy party supplies for a celebratory yacht party. The guy who owns the yacht party supply store sees an influx of cash from rich guys spending their trickle down tax cuts on yacht party supplies and orders a pizza to celebrate, and gives the pizza guy a big fat trickle-down tip. As you can see, the tax cut started out at the rich guy, but before long even the lowly pizza delivery guy is getting a piece of that sweet trickle-down cheddar.

Notice an interesting thing about this account: it is fundamentally a _demand-side_ story. In this story, the trickling down happens as a result of people spending extra money on goods and services. It is not about creating supply. So it's _not even an accurate representation_ of supply-side economics. People rightly point out that it's a flawed story, because poorer people probably have a higher marginal propensity to consume than rich people, so you'd be better off giving the tax cut or equivalent transfer payments to poor people if you want to stimulate economic activity. Well, yeah, no shit, that's because this is a complete straw-man and no economist actually believes that this story is true.

What some economists actually do believe is that the path to prosperity is via the supply curve and not the demand curve. Making things cheaper to make and cheaper to buy makes people better off faster than just giving them money to buy things at existing levels of production. And the way to do that is investment—investment meaning, in the economics sense, spending on things like factories and equipment. There is a huge body of theory and evidence to support this idea—higher levels of investment do lead to faster growth. So supply siders believe that things like taxes on capital gains are harmful to the economy on the margin because they reduce spending on investment, and may even encourage spending on consumption, which is a bad outcome to the supply-sider. They also believe in reducing barriers on production—things like government regulation and income taxes. They also believe in, you guessed it, helping make sure that corporations don't go out of business amidst a once-in-a-century black swan event — call it a "corporate bailout".

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