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Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

theatlantic.com

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Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#271
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reiki focuses specifically on this aspect in emphasizing the focus, intent and emotional commitment of the practitioner. Replace "energy" with "emotion" and it begins to look legitimate.

Which is interesting because emotion is directly proportional to level of energy in brain cells.

Is this a result from research into depression?

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#272
post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Modern medicine, with the way hospitals and health insurance are run, do not and cannot address, for economic reasons, a pretty important aspect, albeit subjective, which is well-being. The "economic reasons" are just the preferences of the rich & powerful. Resources could be allocated in other ways. It is just that those that call the shots are not interested. In the US, they also managed to convince a large part…

"economic reasons", I'm glad I'm not the only one that gets triggered by a formulation like that.

There is such thing as "economic reasons", it's probably the shortest way to describe "prioritization of what's most demanded, under condition of limited resources". Demand is expressed with money, which rich have more of, so in this way, it boils down to preferences of the richest people in the group of facility's customers; but this is an equivalent to observing that market isn't democracy.

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#273

> The ailments that Reiki seems to treat most effectively are those that orthodox medicine struggles to manage: pain, anxiety, chronic disease, and the fear or discomfort of facing not only the suffering of illness but also the suffering of treatment. This is key. Modern medicine, with the way hospitals and health insurance are run, do not and cannot address, for economic reasons, a pretty important aspect, albeit su…

I only have a very superficial understanding of reiki and other alternative treatments, but I wonder how much of the subjective effects have to do with psychological suggestion.

I mean, of course the placebo effect is also real, and just getting the feeling that someone is personally and emotionally engaging with you and your issues can sometimes do wonders, and things that just feel good can improve well-being regardless of whether the theory behind them makes any sense.

But if some kinds of treatments do appear to have effects beyond placebo or just plain "this feels good" (I don't know if reiki does; my limited understanding is that research doesn't support that), I wouldn't be surprised if it had something to do with suggestion as well. (For example, hypnosis can apparently help with irritable bowel syndrome, and I have a vague recollection that there's even some scientific support for that. So yeah, suggestion can even have an effect on physical symptoms.)

Even things like yoga or other exercises where part of the practice may be getting into a certain state of mind probably involve suggestion at least on some level.

I could totally see something like reiki producing a higher-than-expected effect of e.g. relaxation in some people, especially those who are more susceptible to suggestion. But that's just a hunch; it might be interesting to know if there's been any research on that.

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Place a log-periodic tooth antenna on the patient. Hook it up to a wide-band signal analyzer. Perform reiki. If no signal is read, electromagnetic energy in the frequency range of the antenna is likely ruled out. Repeat the measurement with identical touch that is non-reiki. No difference means that reiki does not use that energy band. Repeat with photovoltaic cells, microphones, night-vision sensors, capacitative se…

Problems I see with that... You'd need to cover from ELF up to FIR. I would make the statement that NIR up through gamma/xrays is not being generated by the human body. With that, we're looking at around 10THz of bandwidth for a full spectrum. At 8bit IQ acquisition, we're looking at 20TB/s... And if that's assuming you have ideal transmitters and receivers for the whole set of bands. You want to also transmit to sim…

For the initial investigation, it suffices to find any difference at all between reiki hands and non-reiki hands.

If we use every measurement device humanity has at its disposal, and find no difference, it is safe to conclude that the visible effects of reiki have no discernable cause of action beyond the placebo effect--which can be reliably generated by putting sufficient flimflammery in your bunkum.

If there is a difference, it should be measurable. And repeatably measurable using standardized testing devices with SI-derived units. If there is a genuine effect that can only be measured by its effect on biology, then obviously one should be able to build a measurement tool using biological cells. If reiki is real, it can be explained, one question at a time.

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, placebos don't work. That is not what is meant by "the placebo effect" by doctors. There is no active ingredient in a placebo. That's why it has no effect on broken bones or cancer. A placebo doesn't have an effect on anything. However, patients that receive treatment that include a placebo medication and/or procedure (instead of the active version) often report improvement in their perception of their condition.…

It sounds like your contradicting yourself. You say placebos don't work and don't have an effect on anything, but in that example the kiss is the placebo. And then you say the kiss lowers their pain, which implies it does work.

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Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Technically, that is also true when studying energy in physics. You can't ever measure it directly. Only indirect effects. From that we build models. And one of those models contains a quantity called "energy [physics/chemistry/etc]" which is in fact a highly abstract concept that doesn't correspond to any actual object in the world. Technically it doesn't even have a definite value in any real system. But we take it…

For me, this is par for the course. When I propose in measuring things like Reiki, or other forms of occult energy (notedly not: em, weak, strong, gravity), I get told that there's no way to measure directly. When I propose a way to test and potentially refine, I get told it's woo-woo and ignored. I'm also a reiki master.... And the CTO of a 2 person Signals Intelligence startup. I'd like to think I'm not conflating…

OK, so what's the mechanism?

I have tense muscles in my back from WFH. A Reikist touches my back. What happens to relieve the tension? Does mana from their hands exert a force to directly extend the tense muscles? Does the mana stimulate the release of some chemical which relaxes the muscle? How does it work?

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I dream of an economic system that serves human beings instead > of the numerical abstractions behind which the rich and > powerful hide their extreme selfishness. So did Gene Roddenberry. Most of his work is based on that premise.

I've heard this before .. in his books so the senior officers get luxurious quarters as they did in the TV series? That seems to be a contrast with basic egalitarianism?

[deleted]

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Modern medicine, with the way hospitals and health insurance are run, do not and cannot address, for economic reasons, a pretty important aspect, albeit subjective, which is well-being. The "economic reasons" are just the preferences of the rich & powerful. Resources could be allocated in other ways. It is just that those that call the shots are not interested. In the US, they also managed to convince a large part…

> I dream of an economic system that serves human beings instead > of the numerical abstractions behind which the rich and > powerful hide their extreme selfishness. So did Gene Roddenberry. Most of his work is based on that premise.

He was not alone in literature of dreaming of a socialist utopia, enforced by a military dictatorship (Starfleet, in this instance).

The Culture novels also dive deeply here, and are IMO better literature, despite both canons carefully avoiding the sticky problems associated with scarce or finite resources (which is easy to avoid in storytelling if not philosophy, once you’ve gone post-scarcity). I think Roddenberry patched over it by not having precious metals being able to be produced by replicators, so the rest of the unwashed not-military-dictatorship can still engage in trade.

I’ve still never seen a solution to post-scarcity finite resource allocation, though. Banks dodged it wholly for the Culture. Not even Doctorow, who grazed up against it in Down and Out, has tackled it head-on. You can’t really have eg Georgism if you don’t have a system of money.

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

sure if the patient is sufferring from anxiety Feeling nervous, restless or tense Having an increased heart rate Breathing rapidly (hyperventilation) Thats not what the article is talking about though. GP is talking about promoting some sort of "well being" thorough anxiety reduction. Has nothing to do if the person is sweating or breathing rapidly.

How about the other symptoms you didn't list? > Having the urge to avoid things that trigger anxiety > Feeling weak or tired > Trouble concentrating or thinking about anything other than the present worry > Having trouble sleeping Those are exactly the issues GP is talking about, article even mentioned anectodes of improved sleep.

[deleted]

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#280
post #189

> Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it? It doesn't. Intro section on Wikipedia [0] already lists five studies that concluded it doesn't work: "Clinical research does not show reiki to be effective as a treatment for any medical condition, including cancer,[4][5] diabetic neuropathy,[6] or anxiety and depression,[7] therefore it should not replace conventional medical treatment. There is no proof of the effective…

An interesting point TFA makes is that it doesn't have to beat placebo: the placebo effect itself provides therapeutic benefit! > Ted Kaptchuk, a Harvard Medical School professor and one of the lead researchers, theorizes that the placebo effect is, in the words of the Times article, “a biological response to an act of caring; that somehow the encounter itself calls forth healing and that the more intense and focused…

I'm not particularly familiar with reiki, but the issue with anything that contends with placebo tends to be that they're not cheap, and people are being lied to and not being told that they're a placebo, expecting a cure-all. You can even buy homeopathic medicine on the shelf, and you're essentially paying $10 for a 2 ounce bottle of water.

I'm not sure of reiki rates, but many of the other things I consider placebo replacements (based on studies of effectiveness) are not cheap. Essential oils, homepathic medicines, rare earth jewelery, etc. All are sold as cure-alls, fail to deliver their promises to a large percentage of the population, and take advantage of people's trust in anecdotal evidence.

If any of these were being marketed in a truthful way I'd be more supportive of them, but currently they seem to be taking advantage of people and promising cures for things that they can't cure. This is actively doing harm to a certain percentage of the population that is trying to use them to cure things like cancer.

I'm fully supportive of doing things that you find helpful. I don't mind my family buying essential oils, or doing whatever they want really. But they also need to understand the truth and limitations.

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