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Farmworkers face coronavirus risk: ‘You can’t pick strawberries over Zoom’

latimes.com

131–137 of 137 posts

Re: Farmworkers face coronavirus risk: ‘You can’t pick strawberries over Zoom’

#131
post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The industry can correct itself or die off. If no one wants a product at a humane price then the industry should go extinct in a functioning society. Okay, but is there a functioning society? Is there some welfare system where these people could take refuge? I don't think so. These workers come all the way from some place where their situation wouldn't be any better, otherwise that's where they'd stay. Should the i…

That's exactly what the southern slave owners tried claiming as well... and some slaves chose to stay because they believed the alternative would be worse. It doesn't mean we should support inhumane treatment of other people so that a handful of "Farmers" can get rich.

> That's exactly what the southern slave owners tried claiming as well... and some slaves chose to stay because they believed the alternative would be worse.

That's not my argument. Of course, if a slave owner has to give up on their "property", they're not gonna provide housing, food and equipment to their former slaves anymore. The price of labor kicks in.

Perhaps that price is lower than keeping a slave, perhaps it is higher. There's some arguments as to why free workers are actually cheaper. In any case, that price is always in flux.

You're not going to discover that price while maintaining slavery, because the slaves have no opportunity to name their price. That's why the slave owner's argument is invalid.

By contrast, the workers at these farms do have the choice. Nothing forces them, besides their own economic situation. They have no claim to welfare, no other skill that would pay better.

> It doesn't mean we should support inhumane treatment of other people so that a handful of "Farmers" can get rich.

By and large, farmers don't get rich. They're under price pressure from the store chains that buy their produce. Those store chains don't get rich either, they're under price pressure from consumers. Margins are razor-thin.

We can all stop buying strawberries and let those farms go bankrupt, everything will be strictly worse.

Re: Farmworkers face coronavirus risk: ‘You can’t pick strawberries over Zoom’

#132
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How would the value they create [...] be measured? Even if it could, that value would be so enormous that there are simple economic constraints on what's possible in terms of remuneration. Lot's of people are allocated what are probably criminally small portions of the value they create. For instance, if the sanitation engineers in a city disappeared, you wouldn't want to be in that city 3 months later. The city's…

>Lot's of people are allocated what are probably criminally small portions of the value they create. My comment was written to elucidate why "value they create" is a useless sentiment. For example, none of the paintings in Louvre or whatever museum have any value to me. But they do to other people, so it would be impossible to have a consensus on "value". Some people like strawberries and would value them more than p…

The purpose in our current societal system

Our form of greed-centered capitalism is not some inevitable natural truth. We've chosen to live that way. We can choose otherways. We can choose to pay people to recognize their contributions to society, as opposed to how much they do to enrich an individual. We can choose to ensure everybody has decent living conditions, no matter what to do. We can choose to live vast swaths of humanity in dirt and squalor. We can choose to commit collective suicide.

It's up to us. Right now? It's a point where events are pushing us to consider our choices.

Re: Farmworkers face coronavirus risk: ‘You can’t pick strawberries over Zoom’

#133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Lot's of people are allocated what are probably criminally small portions of the value they create. My comment was written to elucidate why "value they create" is a useless sentiment. For example, none of the paintings in Louvre or whatever museum have any value to me. But they do to other people, so it would be impossible to have a consensus on "value". Some people like strawberries and would value them more than p…

The purpose in our current societal system Our form of greed-centered capitalism is not some inevitable natural truth. We've chosen to live that way. We can choose otherways. We can choose to pay people to recognize their contributions to society, as opposed to how much they do to enrich an individual. We can choose to ensure everybody has decent living conditions, no matter what to do. We can choose to live vast swa…

That sounds wrong. It is a natural truth, that if somebody will do a job for less, folks will hire that one instead. Competition, capitalism are a reasonable fallout of currency and trade.

We can choose some things, but not how a free market behaves. And experiments in non-free markets have not gone so well (see Chile, Venezuela etc etc).

Like it or not, I don't think I have this wrong. Wishing isn't the same as logic.

Re: Farmworkers face coronavirus risk: ‘You can’t pick strawberries over Zoom’

#134
post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's exactly what the southern slave owners tried claiming as well... and some slaves chose to stay because they believed the alternative would be worse. It doesn't mean we should support inhumane treatment of other people so that a handful of "Farmers" can get rich.

> That's exactly what the southern slave owners tried claiming as well... and some slaves chose to stay because they believed the alternative would be worse. That's not my argument. Of course, if a slave owner has to give up on their "property", they're not gonna provide housing, food and equipment to their former slaves anymore. The price of labor kicks in. Perhaps that price is lower than keeping a slave, perhaps i…

>Nothing forces them, besides their own economic situation.

Right - starving to death is always an option, nothing is forcing them. Free market at work!

>By and large, farmers don't get rich. They're under price pressure from the store chains that buy their produce. Those store chains don't get rich either, they're under price pressure from consumers. Margins are razor-thin.

It's not 1980, that's a fallacy and has been for a long time. By and large, "farmers" are large corporations printing money.

https://www.ers.usda.gov/amber-waves/2017/march/large-family...

>The shift has come at the expense of small farms. Small family and nonfamily farms accounted for 46 percent of production in 1991, but by 2015, that share had fallen under 25 percent.

Re: Farmworkers face coronavirus risk: ‘You can’t pick strawberries over Zoom’

#135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Lot's of people are allocated what are probably criminally small portions of the value they create. My comment was written to elucidate why "value they create" is a useless sentiment. For example, none of the paintings in Louvre or whatever museum have any value to me. But they do to other people, so it would be impossible to have a consensus on "value". Some people like strawberries and would value them more than p…

The purpose in our current societal system Our form of greed-centered capitalism is not some inevitable natural truth. We've chosen to live that way. We can choose otherways. We can choose to pay people to recognize their contributions to society, as opposed to how much they do to enrich an individual. We can choose to ensure everybody has decent living conditions, no matter what to do. We can choose to live vast swa…

>We can choose to pay people to recognize their contributions to society, as opposed to how much they do to enrich an individual.

You have yet to provide a formula with which to calculate this amount. And since it's such a complicated concept, I'm going to go ahead and assume it's impossible to calculate.

Re: Farmworkers face coronavirus risk: ‘You can’t pick strawberries over Zoom’

#136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could, but you would be wrong as the market is universal. You can manipulate it, but ultimately it limits what you can do.

the market is a social construct just like politics, there is nothing universal about it

All children discover it though, so it is universal to humans. A few other animals have it as well.

Re: Farmworkers face coronavirus risk: ‘You can’t pick strawberries over Zoom’

#137
post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's exactly what the southern slave owners tried claiming as well... and some slaves chose to stay because they believed the alternative would be worse. That's not my argument. Of course, if a slave owner has to give up on their "property", they're not gonna provide housing, food and equipment to their former slaves anymore. The price of labor kicks in. Perhaps that price is lower than keeping a slave, perhaps i…

>Nothing forces them, besides their own economic situation. Right - starving to death is always an option, nothing is forcing them. Free market at work! >By and large, farmers don't get rich. They're under price pressure from the store chains that buy their produce. Those store chains don't get rich either, they're under price pressure from consumers. Margins are razor-thin. It's not 1980, that's a fallacy and has be…

> Right - starving to death is always an option, nothing is forcing them. Free market at work!

The free market is not a welfare system, though it can contribute a great deal to welfare, by keeping consumer prices down. It can support a welfare system by being sufficiently productive to raise taxes to pay for stuff.

Meanwhile, those countries that do not employ a free market are poor across the board. Wealth is only achieved through corruption. That poverty is then blamed on "foreign intervention". Well, fair enough, but if your system can't handle that foreign intervention, it's still inferior.

> It's not 1980, that's a fallacy and has been for a long time. By and large, "farmers" are large corporations printing money.

Just because they're larger today doesn't mean they are printing money. It's a highly competitive business. Of course a large farm can be a bit more profitable due to economics of scale, but there's always pressure from the bottom, because the threshold to market entry isn't that high.

Just try to accept that nothing is wrong with business profits per se. Let's say farming businesses have a 12% profit margin[1]. That's the price you pay for them to take the risk of running the business, and to do so efficiently. The profit margin reflects the real price of that service, just like the price of labor. Absent of any monopolies, it's a fair price. You couldn't get it any cheaper by, say, making the government do it. To the contrary.

[1] https://farmdocdaily.illinois.edu/2018/08/operating-profit-m...

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