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Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

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Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#61

Post by marcus_holmes »

chrischen wrote: post #47
ALittleLight wrote: post #45

"Over the past two decades, a number of studies have shown that Reiki treatments help diminish the negative side effects of chemotherapy, improve surgical outcomes, regulate the autonomic nervous system, and dramatically alter people’s experience of physical and emotional pain associated with illness." The article links, with the phrase "a number of studies" to what seems to be one study [1]. In this study it looks l…

If a placebo works generally then it works. Isn't all psychotherapy in a way just a placebo?

Having been through psychotherapy, I can affirm it works.

Spending an hour a week with someone patiently listening without judgement while I tell them everything that's been going on in my head. And sure enough, my emotional problems start to recede and I start to be more engaged with life, less depressed, and more able to function.

I don't know if I'd call that placebo, though. I used to thing it was magic; I talk, and my problems vanish. Looking back on it, it was obvious. Almost exactly like explaining to a rubber duck about a coding problem and seeing the answer suddenly. Having another human patiently listen without judgement to all the crap in my head - that's powerful. Even more so when they then hear the worst stuff that we could ever possibly admit to anyone, and gently confirm that this is normal.

Maybe Reiki is "just" someone touching you gently while wishing you would get well. Again I'm not sure I'd call that placebo.

There's something messed up about our cultures that allows these things to work.

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#63

Post by kieckerjan »

chrischen wrote: post #47
ALittleLight wrote: post #45

"Over the past two decades, a number of studies have shown that Reiki treatments help diminish the negative side effects of chemotherapy, improve surgical outcomes, regulate the autonomic nervous system, and dramatically alter people’s experience of physical and emotional pain associated with illness." The article links, with the phrase "a number of studies" to what seems to be one study [1]. In this study it looks l…

If a placebo works generally then it works. Isn't all psychotherapy in a way just a placebo?

There has been a substantial debate about this (or at least something similar) in psychotherapy since the '70s. It is called the Dodo bird veridct, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodo_bird_verdict

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#64

Post by ganzuul »

hcarvalhoalves wrote: post #23

> The ailments that Reiki seems to treat most effectively are those that orthodox medicine struggles to manage: pain, anxiety, chronic disease, and the fear or discomfort of facing not only the suffering of illness but also the suffering of treatment. This is key. Modern medicine, with the way hospitals and health insurance are run, do not and cannot address, for economic reasons, a pretty important aspect, albeit su…

Reiki focuses specifically on this aspect in emphasizing the focus, intent and emotional commitment of the practitioner. Replace "energy" with "emotion" and it begins to look legitimate.

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#65

Post by Erlich_Bachman »

chrischen wrote: post #47
ALittleLight wrote: post #45

"Over the past two decades, a number of studies have shown that Reiki treatments help diminish the negative side effects of chemotherapy, improve surgical outcomes, regulate the autonomic nervous system, and dramatically alter people’s experience of physical and emotional pain associated with illness." The article links, with the phrase "a number of studies" to what seems to be one study [1]. In this study it looks l…

If a placebo works generally then it works. Isn't all psychotherapy in a way just a placebo?

> Isn't all psychotherapy in a way just a placebo?

Absolutely not.

It is one thing to just give someone a sugar pill or a random ritual and tell them "this will make you feel better". That's placebo. (Not saying it never works, just that's the definition of placebo.)

It is another thing completely to help people realize which thought patterns and which conscious focus and which memories keep them stuck in old loops. Which subconscious patterns and habits make them miserable. Which parts of their current world model are not working for them and help them actually transform the way they think about themselves, view themselves, feel themselves, the way they operate in the world on a day-to-day basis. That's psychotherapy. It is literally changing the software of the human mind.

Now there might be fake psychotherapists out there who don't know what they are doing and are limited to the effects of placebo in their practices. But that does not mean that one thing is the same as the other.

I can also see how there could be cases where a person receives a placebo, for some reason (the magic behind placebo) it makes them feel exceptionally well, and they use this push of energy to transform some part of their worldview on their own and so they keep some long-term effects of it. This doesn't either make one thing the same as the other, and it does not happen so often either.

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#66

Post by clort »

jekrok0n wrote: post #11

I’ve studied this and made a throwaway since wow something I know on HN: It works like aspirin works, or other temporary fixes that get chemically flushed. But no I’m not gonna get all nerdy for you. google.com if you’re actually interested, not just looking for shallow socializing Touch lifts our spirits by instigating chemical change in our body. It’s like saying ow or fuck in surprise, which has been shown to help…

If you have studied this then you should use your usual identity with its established credibility to state your views. State them honestly and you will be treated honestly, is my experience of HN.

I don't believe in Reiki or stuff like this in general though I do appreciate the placebo effect and think that personal interaction has a benefit which is difficult to measure. If people wish to be spiritual then that may be good for them but that doesn't mean that spirits exist or have any measurable effect on the physical world. However I had a partner some years ago who was Reiki trained and did very much believe in it so as a result I have experienced Reiki and found that the effects were not clearly undetectable. For instance, though my partner did not touch me at all during sessions, I could feel the same things that I was being told. I am specifically referring to the 'energy flow' which 'channels itself to the most needed area' which I could feel the heat of this burning in the same area that my partner told me was problematic which was all around my shoulder and collar bone. Interestingly, about six months later I had a problem with a dislocated clavicle for no apparent reason (just woke up like it) though I had no treatment for this and have had no further issues for 20 years.

Anyway, apparently the person who started ('discovered') the modern Reiki movement found that his power to heal was not valued in general so he formulated the modern system where you must pay a master to be advanced through the levels (I forget but I think there are three levels) and stated that this should be an increasingly significant payment and those who are activated like this should not give Reiki for free. Now, this whole thing sounds so much like a multi-level marketing scam it is unreal but at least my partner was not involved in this aspect, had been given the training and activation for free by a buddhist monk and did not believe in charging for treatments.

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#67

Post by eru »

Erlich_Bachman wrote: post #65
chrischen wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a placebo works generally then it works. Isn't all psychotherapy in a way just a placebo?

> Isn't all psychotherapy in a way just a placebo? Absolutely not. It is one thing to just give someone a sugar pill or a random ritual and tell them "this will make you feel better". That's placebo. (Not saying it never works, just that's the definition of placebo.) It is another thing completely to help people realize which thought patterns and which conscious focus and which memories keep them stuck in old loops.…

It's not completely clear whether there are any psychotherapies that are better than placebos.

Though you have to be careful how you define your placebo.

One approach would be a sugar pill. But the patient would know that this is not psychotherapy. So it doesn't work as a proper placebo.

A slightly better example is a heartwarming chat with a high status individual who is not schooled in any psychotherapy. Say a random professor.

See eg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodo_bird_verdict

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#68

Post by seer »

mercer wrote: post #49
seer wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great comment and I apologize in advance for going off topic. We all have our mental models and it takes effort to re-evaluate and change them. And as the saying goes - there are no right models, only useful ones in some situations. Some are useful in more situations than others. Take “flat earth” model of the world. It’s not right, but it’s precise enough for the purposes of living in a village. Nothing wrong with t…

> I once started learning some chinese martial arts, and the instructor was a true believer in more than the fighting techniques, but the spirituality that comes with it. Very easily debunked by modern fact based science. What kind of spirituality are you talking about, and how was this easily debunked? Honestly curious. I don't have any 'proper' spiritual beliefs myself, but I've found that a lot of them are dismiss…

Well for example all of the explanations of how the exercises worked were wrapped around "elements" - you know the usual fire, earth, water etc. And you had "channels" that you had to move energies through by ... rubbing them.

The motions and the rubbing itself did help blood flow and it was quite a nice work out, but I'm quite confident there weren't small spirits of fire flowing down my skin, at least not in the sense the teachings portrayed them I think.

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#69

Post by oarabbus_ »

Erlich_Bachman wrote: post #65
chrischen wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a placebo works generally then it works. Isn't all psychotherapy in a way just a placebo?

> Isn't all psychotherapy in a way just a placebo? Absolutely not. It is one thing to just give someone a sugar pill or a random ritual and tell them "this will make you feel better". That's placebo. (Not saying it never works, just that's the definition of placebo.) It is another thing completely to help people realize which thought patterns and which conscious focus and which memories keep them stuck in old loops.…

Placebos are actually as effective as many approved pharmaceuticals (you should see the statistics games, and nonrandom samples used in the majority of clinical trials).

And, it's getting stronger over time, oddly enough. https://www.wired.com/2009/08/ff-placebo-effect/

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#70

Post by fxtentacle »

chrischen wrote: post #47
ALittleLight wrote: post #45

"Over the past two decades, a number of studies have shown that Reiki treatments help diminish the negative side effects of chemotherapy, improve surgical outcomes, regulate the autonomic nervous system, and dramatically alter people’s experience of physical and emotional pain associated with illness." The article links, with the phrase "a number of studies" to what seems to be one study [1]. In this study it looks l…

If a placebo works generally then it works. Isn't all psychotherapy in a way just a placebo?

It's a way for patients to spend time with someone who cares or at the very least pretends to care. And the touching gives it a sense of intimacy. This is like catnip for lonely people.

As such, this is clearly not placebo. But I find it sad that what could be a normal part of everyone's life (taking to people who care about you) is being presented as a medical intervention.

Also, I find the timing of the article odd. Exactly now that hospitals are overwhelmed they propose treatments that require even more staff time.

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