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How to resolve a conflict when both sides are right

medium.dave-bailey.com

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Re: How to resolve a conflict when both sides are right

#151
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think providing an example will help me understand what you're trying to say. And I worry I will soon hit my comment limit so I may not be able to respond. I do not think what people "feel" is necessary a result of a focus on work. I've often encountered upset people at work because they believed a coworker was implying they were stupid. And in any case, things like fairness in compensation/promotions, etc can play…

As an example, consider a product manager that decides to remove a previously planned feature that one or more people have spent considerable effort working towards. If they can discuss the benefit of keeping the feature (or the cost associated with dropping it) then they stand a better chance of a favorable outcome than if they discuss in terms of how the product manager made them feel. While I think people are righ…

As long as it doesn't affect the health of the codebase or force the engineers to work overtime, why do the engineers care about what features get shipped or not? They're paid to code, so if they aren't sacrificing code quality or working overtime they should just focus on coding features that may or may not get shipped. I mean, if we're being strictly objective that is.

If the engineers have feelings they might feel dismissed and devalued if they spend time and effort making features nobody will ever see.

Re: How to resolve a conflict when both sides are right

#152
One problem is that when people are triggered by certain topics, they will still be triggered by the topic, no matter how careful or non-violently you approach.

If you are married, and your trigger topic is house work, it doesn't matter if your spouse says "you need to more house work" or "when I get home after a long day of work, I feel let down by having to do a large amount of house work, could please do more in the future?".

If anything, the latter might be seen as more accusatory, even though feeling let down is exactly the emotion that your spouse communicated, and it was "non-violently" communicated using the "I [feel]" pattern.

Re: How to resolve a conflict when both sides are right

#153
post #134
post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(Hint: Refactoring is usually an inefficient way to write a second system, with all of the downsides of the second system effect.) Sounds like you are saying that refactoring is usually incompetently done to me.

Sounds like you are saying that refactoring is usually incompetently done to me. Not at all intended on my part. Nor would I say it is usually what went wrong. The primary root cause is an underestimation of the true complexity of the problem. The details of which only start to become apparent after you've begun the rewrite. An inevitable secondary cause is organizational pressures to add features to the rewrite. Thi…

Do you mean rewrite? You're acting as though refactoring is a process that involves destroying bad code and rewriting it from scratch. It's not.

Refactoring is usually the modification of existing code while maintaining existing functionality in order to make the code easier to maintain and reason about for future developers.

Furthermore, if you're given points for refactoring (as you should be) your velocity is very unlikely to go down in my opinion. I will say that many teams and managers do not do this, but that's because they're poor managers.

If you have tests in place you will cause fewer bugs by refactoring. If you don't you will still create a few bugs as you refactor. But imo, fixing the bugs created by refactoring is just... part of refactoring. If that means the task requires an even higher number of points, so be it.

As a manager, there's no point in forcing the team to accept a reality they know isn't possible. It's not beneficial for anyone.

Re: How to resolve a conflict when both sides are right

#154
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's violent in the way that telling someone "you're worthless" is violent That is not violent.

"How not to resolve a conflict?" by Anonymous Chapter 1 - definitions When the source of a conflict is definition of a word and somebody defines it, just say "No, it's not!".

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=violence&ia=about

Re: How to resolve a conflict when both sides are right

#155
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Democratic People's Republic of China is what I believe he was referencing, though it's officially the People's Republic of China - maybe confusing the PRC with the DRC (Democratic Republic of the Congo)?

Probably confusing it with North Korea, which is officially the "Democratic People's Republic of Korea".

Ah yes, it is called "Corea" in some languages

https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corea

Re: How to resolve a conflict when both sides are right

#156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The nature of pushing a packaged book with ideas about elevating a certain type of language with a certain type of goals over anything else and expecting people to conform in the work place, is controlling someone else's language. You have the opportunity to create an individual approach that works well in most situations. That is your social advantage in the workplace that on the whole you don't need or want to shar…

> The nature of pushing a packaged book with ideas about elevating a certain type of language with a certain type of goals over anything else and expecting people to conform in the work place, is controlling someone else's language. So can we agree that your problem is not with NVC but with a few people? The scenario I can think of where what you are witnessing makes some sense is if someone (perhaps management?) is…

>So can we agree that your problem is not with NVC but with a few people?

No. I was describing what NVC is. The book, this thread, the culture of people like you pushing it in the workplace is what I wrote. The book encourages a language form, the proponents of the book push a language form, you are pushing a 'communication style'.

>I do get the sense from a number of comments (not necessarily yours) that people think they should be able to express themselves at work however they feel most comfortable. That's an unrealistic expectation at any sizable workplace. How you choose to communicate does impact team productivity and is definitely a factor in promotions, continued employment, etc. I don't hire you to do solo work - I hire you to produce results while collaborating with other people. And communication styles do impact how well you will collaborate with people.

Comfort can be good or bad, I don't see it as a property worth examining. Working solo or collaboratively is a fine line, at the end of the day everybody does the work by themselves, you are hired for your individual skills at a particular task. The collaboration aspect is half the job and that half is not worth slavery to a language form for the sake of micromanagement.

Your communication style is not working with me. I don't see the value of your ideas on this topic. The value of the ideas should be self-evident because we are talking about how to communicate. Who's responsibility is that?

Sociology has been dealing with the fundamental attribution error for fifty years. There is little evidence that communicating in any particular style is going to solve problems and instead will likely paper over miss-attributed judgments about an individual's character rather than looking at the situation they are in. We have been working together as groups for thousands of years, it's unlikely a new fad book is going to have a solution to 'communication', one of the most fundamental things we do as humans.

If you're a boss it doesn't matter what I say because you can just set the rules however you like, it's not a workplace where I'd choose to work. I would look forward to working with people that want to talk about mission critical issues more than they want (apparently) to spend talking about feelings and structuring sentences.

Re: How to resolve a conflict when both sides are right

#157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The other problem that the article completely ignores is the difference in power between the manager and the engineer. NVC and NVC-like forms of communication work when the participants are relatively equal in power, when one person can say honestly and forthrightly what they feel and be reasonably certain that they won't be retaliated against for being honest. In my experience, that describes very few business setti…

> NVC and NVC-like forms of communication work when the participants are relatively equal in power Could you suggest a general approach to mitigating conflict when there is inequality in power without getting to the specifics, listening to both sides, and attempting to find a win-win? If the less-powerful don't try to get what they want, the more powerful wins by default. > "I feel belittled by the fact that you cons…

In your reply, this part

> “ Let's work with this. Are you feeling resentful because your need to be listened to?”

comes off as quite infantilizing and degrading. If I received this reply, I would feel you are not treating me with respect and you’re trying to undercut me by appealing to an emotion (resentfulness) and shifting focus onto that instead of dealing with the actual problems.

Re: How to resolve a conflict when both sides are right

#158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I personally find NVC to be degrading and belittling. It presumes I am not a grown up who can handle important criticism, which infantilizes me. It is also a political weapon. It may be non-violent in one domain (the tone and language presentation) but it is very violent in other domains like undermining valid criticisms, changing the conversation so it’s not about the problem but instead filibustered with metaproble…

I honestly don't understand your point. Listening to how you feel (you're frustrated) and uncovering out why (you want to be treated like an adult) isn't theatre, it's how adult resolve problems. It's worth considering whether you're projecting onto NVC here... after all, NVC doesn't infantilize you, although this may be an area you're vulnerable to shame.

This reply, for example, is infantilizing. You have not engaged with the points I made at all and instead are pretending that a reply all about feeling or perceptions is in any sense an adequate way to respond.

The only part of your reply that contains non-belittling words is the first sentence where you admit, “I honestly don’t understand your point.”

Re: How to resolve a conflict when both sides are right

#159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The nature of pushing a packaged book with ideas about elevating a certain type of language with a certain type of goals over anything else and expecting people to conform in the work place, is controlling someone else's language. So can we agree that your problem is not with NVC but with a few people? The scenario I can think of where what you are witnessing makes some sense is if someone (perhaps management?) is…

>So can we agree that your problem is not with NVC but with a few people? No. I was describing what NVC is. The book, this thread, the culture of people like you pushing it in the workplace is what I wrote. The book encourages a language form, the proponents of the book push a language form, you are pushing a 'communication style'. >I do get the sense from a number of comments (not necessarily yours) that people thin…

> No. I was describing what NVC is. The book, this thread, the culture of people like you pushing it in the workplace is what I wrote. The book encourages a language form, the proponents of the book push a language form, you are pushing a 'communication style'.

I'm sorry, but:

1. You haven't read the book.

2. You are falsely accusing me of pushing it in the workplace. Do you work at my workplace and know me?

3. I am not pushing a 'communication style'. Nowhere in this thread or anywhere else have I suggested that one should follow it. I've expressed my like for it - that's all.

If you have concluded all this about me, then I must say I do not trust at all what you say about the people "pushing" NVC at your work place. And frankly, your comments remind me of people who make all kinds of claims about, say, Muslims/Islam without understanding anything about them.

> you are hired for your individual skills at a particular task.

Rarely. This is true for contract jobs, but not employment. People are usually hired with a project in mind, and then anything else we give them.

> at the end of the day everybody does the work by themselves

Also rare. If you're committing code to a shared codebase, you are not working by yourself.

> I would look forward to working with people that want to talk about mission critical issues more than they want (apparently) to spend talking about feelings and structuring sentences.

As I said - I don't talk about communications issues at work unless it is clearly affecting people (e.g. someone complains). And when that happens, your communication style has become something that affects mission critical issues.

I may practice NVC on occasion[1], but NVC doesn't require or request others to do so, and insisting others do so pretty much violates the NVC approach.

> We have been working together as groups for thousands of years, it's unlikely a new fad book is going to have a solution to 'communication', one of the most fundamental things we do as humans.

Again, as one who has not read the book, you cannot appreciate how your comment sounds to those who have. To give an extreme example: Imagine a popular book today talking about the need to be truthful, and imagine someone on the Internet coming in and saying "People have been dealing with each other for thousands of years. I don't want to read some new fad book." As I said earlier, Rosenberg didn't invent NVC. He merely identified its existence. Most people I've seen who successfully destress a situation are using NVC without having heard of it. I listen to a radio show where the host does a fantastic job of getting people to speak honestly (local issues and conflicts in my cities). He doesn't get people to say "I feel X because of my need for Y", but he is practicing NVC. I should email him and ask if he's even heard of NVC.

I don't practice NVC because I think it's a new thing that's cool and awesome (BTW, the book is older than many people here). I practice it because after reading it, I noticed it everywhere in the world. It's not at all new.

[1] And it really is on occasion. Anyone who knows NVC can see I'm not practicing it in these comments.

Re: How to resolve a conflict when both sides are right

#160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I took a two day workshop on communications at work (not NVC). They did a survey of the class: How many people think facts, and not feelings should be the focus of a discussion? And how many felt the opposite (focus should be on feelings, not facts) That is endemic with society today is that people don't seem to think facts important. Also a two day communication workshop on how to talk to people. You have bigger p…

> That is endemic with society today is that people don't seem to think facts important. No one said facts aren't important. They said facts shouldn't be the focus. And what's with "society today"? When was society any different? > Also a two day communication workshop on how to talk to people. You have bigger problems than how to communicate at work. There are worse things. People take a whole semester course on com…

> No one said facts aren't important. They said facts shouldn't be the focus.

Splitting hairs.

> And what's with "society today"? When was society any different?

About 20 years speech codes and communication frameworks were mocked openly and treated with scorn (as they should be). Today not so much.

> There are worse things. People take a whole semester course on compilers and most don't use any of that knowledge. The majority of technical courses I took in undergrad were never used for anything at work. The communications workshop has been more valuable than those.

This is a general misunderstanding by people such as yourself why they teach you these things. The first being "this is how this works under the hood" and the second is that many other problems might have similar patterns to them. It teaches you how to think in a particular way and break down problems. But alas this was lost on you.

> And about those bigger problems at work? Try solving them with poor communication.

1) Just speak to people. like adults. 2) Be honest. 3) If someone doesn't seems to know what they mean just say "Does that make sense?" and assume you made an error.

It is very simple.

> Because you have to deal with these people at work. I mean, if you're a solo developer who doesn't work in a team, then your stance is fine. If people don't want to work with you on a project, it becomes your problem. The world isn't going to change to conform to how you thinks adults "should" behave.

It isn't about how I think adults should behave. It how the rest of the world thinks adults should behave. You are there to do a job.

> This is classic way to deny yourself of agency and put the onus on others. I once told a manager of mine to stop using the word "should" - it's a way of saying "I don't want to deal with this - it is someone else's fault".

Not at all. I've accepted there things I can control (myself) and there are things I largely cannot control (other people). You seem to framing this like I go around being verbally abusive to my co-workers.

> And you are willing to disclose this in an interview?

I am a contractor. I am brought in to do specific jobs. I don't spend years working at the same place. If I don't like it somewhere I just don't extend the contract.

I also don't particular respect lifers and company men. But I tend to keep that to myself.

> You conveniently ignored the rest of my comment where the perception this happens is fairly common. No one is acting hostile, but the outcome is similar.

Because the premise was a nonsense.

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