Planning and Managing Layoffs • Hacker News Board

Re: Planning and Managing Layoffs

#161

Post by luckylion » Thu, Apr 02, 2020, 10:22 AM UTC

hef19898 wrote: post #137

luckylion wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But hiring is much easier too. Largely for that very reason, I believe. If it's hard to get rid of somebody, you will make extra extra extra sure that they are a very good fit.

In Germany at least, you have zero protection against being fired in the first 6 months, two weeks notice are enough. Same goes for employees wanting to quit. I don't get the "hiring is difficult" part. While I cannot alk about Europe, too many countries with their own legislation, in germany all you need is a contract and proper registration for social security and so on. Let you accountant handle it and it's done i…

It's not the hiring, it's the firing which is difficult - which makes the hiring difficult. Similar to a marriage, the harder/more expensive you make the divorce, the more people will want to be super sure that it's "for ever".

Re: Planning and Managing Layoffs

#162

Post by luckylion » Thu, Apr 02, 2020, 10:24 AM UTC

elliekelly wrote: post #119

luckylion wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But hiring is much easier too. Largely for that very reason, I believe. If it's hard to get rid of somebody, you will make extra extra extra sure that they are a very good fit.

> If it's hard to get rid of somebody, you will make extra extra extra sure that they are a very good fit. Perhaps I'm in the (American) minority but that seems like a win/win to me. As an employer I'd much rather take a bit more time to find the right person and as an employee I'd gladly exchange a slightly slower market for additional job security/a safety net if things don't work out.

As an employee, the slower market might mean that you don't get a job, because you're more of a long-term risk.

I'm by no means arguing that hire and fire is the best approach, but it makes the market more flexible. So even if you lose your job (less job security), you'll have less trouble finding a new one (less risk).

Re: Planning and Managing Layoffs

#163

Post by hef19898 » Thu, Apr 02, 2020, 11:54 AM UTC

luckylion wrote: post #161

hef19898 wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Germany at least, you have zero protection against being fired in the first 6 months, two weeks notice are enough. Same goes for employees wanting to quit. I don't get the "hiring is difficult" part. While I cannot alk about Europe, too many countries with their own legislation, in germany all you need is a contract and proper registration for social security and so on. Let you accountant handle it and it's done i…

It's not the hiring, it's the firing which is difficult - which makes the hiring difficult. Similar to a marriage, the harder/more expensive you make the divorce, the more people will want to be super sure that it's "for ever".

There are two aspects to this, first you hired the wrong person and, second, the financial situation gets bad enough that head-count needs to be cut.

Regarding the first problem, 6 months should be enough to decide whether the new hire fits or not.

The second problem is a little bit tougher. There are two solutions, so. The first one is fixed-term contract, 1 year, 2 years. These can be extended (twice, if I remember well), which can be good solution for start-ups where long-term revenue is hard to gauge. The second is simple lay-offs. For young companies not that much a problem if there is a clear economic reason. You just close a department.

If cutting long-term employees is a problem, maybe the underlying root cause is bad head-count planning, read over hiring above needs and the companies cash-flow. Employers complaining about "firing is so hard in Germany" is a little bit lazy if you ask me. Don't over hire to beginn with, also helps in situation like Corona as the cash position is much better.

Re: Planning and Managing Layoffs

#164

Post by davidu » Thu, Apr 02, 2020, 2:50 PM UTC

GCA10 wrote: post #160

davidu wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. I’m not sure you read the whole thing, as I cover the grandma birthday example. Sentiment-wise we agree, tactically it’s still not the best practice. I know it sounds like it is. It really depends on the maturity of the workforce and leadership, as I mention. For a lot of startups, that’s in short supply and just saying today is the last day of work is easiest. It shouldn’t have the feeling tossing them out. It…

Thanks for the very thoughtful reply. I like your option of semi-offering a couple days grace period but also letting the departing employee say: "Nope, I'm out of here." From the employee side, there's a primal desire to control something about this unexpected and unwelcome process. Moving the last-day slider a day or two in either direction might hit the spot.

One of the hardest things about this process for a sensitive and compassionate leader is knowing when to not try and "make it better."

This is probably the greatest video clip on the subject of all time: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTjhHrcyiQI

Re: Planning and Managing Layoffs

#165

Post by luckylion » Thu, Apr 02, 2020, 3:04 PM UTC

hef19898 wrote: post #163

luckylion wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not the hiring, it's the firing which is difficult - which makes the hiring difficult. Similar to a marriage, the harder/more expensive you make the divorce, the more people will want to be super sure that it's "for ever".

There are two aspects to this, first you hired the wrong person and, second, the financial situation gets bad enough that head-count needs to be cut. Regarding the first problem, 6 months should be enough to decide whether the new hire fits or not. The second problem is a little bit tougher. There are two solutions, so. The first one is fixed-term contract, 1 year, 2 years. These can be extended (twice, if I remember…

> Regarding the first problem, 6 months should be enough to decide whether the new hire fits or not.

Initially, possibly, but most contracts aren't fixed term. And I've seen way too many people that essentially do nothing, they know it, their manager knows it, but there's no way to get rid of them other than promoting them or waiting for them to retire. So they sit around and wait for retirement.

It's like if your cell phone contract was a 10-year-contract. Very few people want that.

> Employers complaining about "firing is so hard in Germany" is a little bit lazy if you ask me. Don't over hire to beginn with [...]

They're just cutting one word out and follow that advise: Don't hire. Of course, it's not black and white, but if you get strong penalties (aka "I can't get rid of them") for over-hiring, you will make sure that you stay far below the over-hiring threshold.