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What the Heck Is Pyproject.toml?

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Re: What the Heck Is Pyproject.toml?

#101

Post by pjmlp »

mixmastamyk wrote: post #100
pjmlp wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Python is a nice scripting and introduction to programming language, but "It is so far ahead of anything out there for general purpose use." it is not. Maybe when it has a JIT/AOT story that matches Common Lisp, Scheme, Julia, Smalltalk, JavsScript, or I am able to do refactorings with the easiness that it works on Smalltalk, I can re-consider my opinion.

What the OP probably means is that it is hard to beat Python on its knockout combo of pragmatism, readability, stdlib, and third-party support. Does that mean its the best at everything? Of course not. It is second best at most of the important things however, a more unique position than it sounds.

That being the case, then Java and .NET come to mind.

Re: What the Heck Is Pyproject.toml?

#102

Post by mixmastamyk »

Supermancho wrote: post #47
Supermancho wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Python is otherwise the most incredible language of our times By what metric(s)? It's based on statements, and not only on expressions. This is a fundamental issue that it has yet to grow out of.

Downvotes because of what I think about the language. Zealotry at it's finest.

Welcome to HN. They aren't interested in your flippant opinions, man.

Re: What the Heck Is Pyproject.toml?

#103

Post by mixmastamyk »

symmitchry wrote: post #36
Waterluvian wrote: post #26

Is toml even supported in the standard library? This seems just bizarre. Python's really overtaking node for massive churn. I feel like an old guy when peers say, "don't use virtual environment use pipenv." then someone says no no don't even use that, use poetry. Etc. I think about 50% of why I enjoy, in my soul, about Rust when I'm hacking away and personal goofs is that the dependency and project management system…

Python also doesn't support yaml in the standard library, interestingly.

Yaml is a big mess.

I do really like strict-yaml, however (last time I checked) it is just a hack to simplify the large PyYaml compiled package.

Re: What the Heck Is Pyproject.toml?

#104

Post by globular-toast »

fulafel wrote: post #88
earthboundkid wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am an experienced Python programmer. I often have to collaborate with people who are not. There is no greater hell than talking them through installing a working Python environment. It’s impossible. Meanwhile, the pip project is full of developers who tell you that your problem is not a problem and you’re discouraging people by pointing out that they’re blame shifting: https://github.com/pypa/pip/issues/4995 I hone…

Do you mean installing Python itself or the needed packages? I think Python itself is really painless (just use os Python is you have a recent Linux or get it from Python.org). For end users just ship Python along with your app in the same package (Docker image, OS X bundle etc).

Using the system Python for development comes with its own problems. That Python is both an interpreter required by the system for numerous scripts and a runtime dependency for other packages. Using that gives people all sorts of problems, especially when "sudo pip install" is used. You can even break a system that way.

Gentoo is the only distro on which I feel comfortable using the system interpreters because the versions are slotted (you can have multiple versions) and system pip install is effectively disabled.

So on other distros I use pyenv. But trying to explain this to non-Linux geeks is hopeless.

I've taken to recommending the following: use system python/pip to install pipx (but with --user). Use that to install "global" tools. Use virtualenvwrapper to manage projects. Use pip-tools to manage frozen environments (ie. requirements.txt). I've looked into replacing the latter with pipenv (which is awful) and poetry (which is better) but I've so far been unable to generally recommend anything else.

I don't even want to think about other platforms and conda and all that.

Re: What the Heck Is Pyproject.toml?

#105

Post by mixmastamyk »

pjmlp wrote: post #101
mixmastamyk wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What the OP probably means is that it is hard to beat Python on its knockout combo of pragmatism, readability, stdlib, and third-party support. Does that mean its the best at everything? Of course not. It is second best at most of the important things however, a more unique position than it sounds.

That being the case, then Java and .NET come to mind.

Those are great when you need big or fast, but py is much better at the smaller, easier to write end.

Re: What the Heck Is Pyproject.toml?

#106

Post by Pandabob »

earthboundkid wrote: post #50
fermienrico wrote: post #4

Python desperately needs a better packaging solution than pip from Python Software Foundation. Stop all new features until this - the biggest pain point for Python across all expertise levels from newbies to experienced Python programmers - is officially solved. No pipenv, no poetry, no conda, etc from third party devs who sometimes get tired of the pressure [1]. It is immense. Combine all this virtualenv stuff with…

I am an experienced Python programmer. I often have to collaborate with people who are not. There is no greater hell than talking them through installing a working Python environment. It’s impossible. Meanwhile, the pip project is full of developers who tell you that your problem is not a problem and you’re discouraging people by pointing out that they’re blame shifting: https://github.com/pypa/pip/issues/4995 I hone…

As a comment to your first paragraph, I've found pyenv combined with its virtualenv plugin to be a decently consistent experience.

Re: What the Heck Is Pyproject.toml?

#107

Post by takluyver »

no_wizard wrote: post #37
brettcannon wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> First of all, as an aside, thank you for all the work you do on Python! Welcome! > is Don still there? Yep, working on the data science features of the extension. > on Talk Python I remember specifically Michael and some others talking about the massive influx of money into Python and its ecosystem in the last year and half or so. As I said there have been donations for PyPI and pip just got its big donation. The C…

That makes sense, on its face, as to why they don't have a business arm, at least currently. One thing I would suggest, on its face, is that any time someone has to reach you (as in, the foundation, not you specifically), that introduces friction, even the smallest amount of it, can leave lost donations on the table. If there was a simple page even, that said something like Do you have a feature you need implemented…

> For a simple donation, we can prioritize the work you need...

I'm not an expert, but I'm pretty sure a non-profit can't do things like this. If the person giving the money expects a tangible benefit in return, it's not a donation.

Re: What the Heck Is Pyproject.toml?

#108

Post by twic »

toyg wrote: post #53
jshen wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is BS. most other languages, with the same constraints, have done far better. Take Ruby as one example.

Ruby serves one ecosystem (web), barely. Python serves several huge ones: web, datascience, 3d graphics, sysadmin... all with different needs, different conventions, different “standard” tools to do this and that. The community is orders of magnitude bigger than ruby by now, and anything that requires coordination is much harder to accomplish than in a lot of other ecosystems. Python is now on par with ecosystems lik…

> Python serves several huge ones: web, datascience, 3d graphics, sysadmin... all with different needs, different conventions, different “standard” tools to do this and that.

Them having different conventions and standard tools is the failure, not a constraint.

What are the different needs that these ecosystems have which mean they couldn't use a common package manager? I don't believe there are any.

Re: What the Heck Is Pyproject.toml?

#109

Post by twic »

j0057 wrote: post #65
earthboundkid wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am an experienced Python programmer. I often have to collaborate with people who are not. There is no greater hell than talking them through installing a working Python environment. It’s impossible. Meanwhile, the pip project is full of developers who tell you that your problem is not a problem and you’re discouraging people by pointing out that they’re blame shifting: https://github.com/pypa/pip/issues/4995 I hone…

I see pip's behaviour being called "bizarre" and "baffling", an expectation that the "fix" should be easy (it never is: you "simply" add a flag, now some code paths bifurcate, now you need more tests, documentation should be updated and reviewed, etc.), no pull request, and the pip developer is still patiently explaining why pip's behaviour is not meeting with expectations. But really, it takes a lot of entitlement t…

I see a weird, surprising, unhelpful design, and a lot of critical comments being deleted.

Re: What the Heck Is Pyproject.toml?

#110

Post by pjmlp »

mixmastamyk wrote: post #105
pjmlp wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That being the case, then Java and .NET come to mind.

Those are great when you need big or fast, but py is much better at the smaller, easier to write end.

Ah, so Python is for small and slow, doesn't seem to be the best in everything after all.

Which brings us back to "nice scripting and introduction to programming language".

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