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What the Heck Is Pyproject.toml?

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Re: What the Heck Is Pyproject.toml?

#71

Post by poooood »

talentedcoin wrote: post #40

I don’t want to be too negative, and I realize this isn’t an option for everyone ... but seriously, just use conda if you can. Judging from comments here and in the past, we all know packaging is one of Python’s Achilles’ heels. I spent a couple years bouncing around with pyenv/pipenv, then poetry, then back. I lovingly followed all the flamewars here and on github. Ultimately, I realize now, I laboured under the con…

Conda has problems but generally it is pretty incredible. It was way more useful before python wheels were everywhere tho. It’s still amazing and you can install so many non python related things with it. Mad props to conda-forge too.

Re: What the Heck Is Pyproject.toml?

#72

Post by harikb »

int_19h wrote: post #56
earthboundkid wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, Python’s packaging is partly bad because it’s based on C extensions, which are intrinsically bad, but it’s also just plain bad compared to its peers, like Ruby and NPM.

What exactly is "intrinsically bad" about extensions written in C?

In my personal experience, extensions written in C don't necessarily compile at first attempt because the dependency management there is even worse. May be it fails with a missing openssl or readline library and I have to go find whatever OS specific thingy I need to do to recover.

Re: What the Heck Is Pyproject.toml?

#73

Post by harikb »

brettcannon wrote: post #25
harikb wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I teach Python to some middle school kids. Pip vs Pip3 and PYTHONPATH wasted entirety of two class sessions. By the way, Python should go beyond Go. It should single binary the someone can install without root privileges. The fact that I have hundreds of Chromebooks at my school and I can’t use any of them - school IT, correctly, doesn’t want me mucking with advanced settings.

People would love to see that happen, but it requires time and effort from people to build such a solution. Some people are trying, e.g. https://pyoxidizer.readthedocs.io/ and https://briefcase.readthedocs.io/ as well as stalwarts like PyInstaller and such. But as I said, it takes time and effort and there's only so much of that when it's being done by volunteers in their evenings and weekends. And as an aside, I wou…

Thanks for the link. About the lack of resources problem though, I have a few points to make.

I think one of the unfortunate things that happened is indeed the arrival of new languages. Go, Rust, Swift, whatever is taking away a bunch of senior developers to work on those. Even though Python is still "most wanted" and "most popular", imho that does not reflect the reality among senior developers who are capable of taking on large tasks like this.

Sometimes the frustration expressed by package management has more to do with build dependencies rather than the distribution itself. Like a library that has a C dependency. In this context, the world of Go is equally messy, when CGO is involved. Luckily in their case, most people do rewrite libraries in Pure Go.

Re: What the Heck Is Pyproject.toml?

#74

Post by takeda »

jshen wrote: post #45
chc wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Poetry is...a little quirky. I've seen it go into infinite loops trying to resolve projects with, like, 10 dependencies. I'm not really sold on it being better than just making a virtualenv and pip installing.

How do other people replicate your venv? How does production replicate your venv?

Create setup.cfg (it is better than setup.py, since it is declarative) listing immediate dependencies, use requires.txt as a lock file (I prefer to use pip-compile from pip-tools).

Re: What the Heck Is Pyproject.toml?

#75

Post by takeda »

harikb wrote: post #22
fermienrico wrote: post #4

Python desperately needs a better packaging solution than pip from Python Software Foundation. Stop all new features until this - the biggest pain point for Python across all expertise levels from newbies to experienced Python programmers - is officially solved. No pipenv, no poetry, no conda, etc from third party devs who sometimes get tired of the pressure [1]. It is immense. Combine all this virtualenv stuff with…

I teach Python to some middle school kids. Pip vs Pip3 and PYTHONPATH wasted entirety of two class sessions. By the way, Python should go beyond Go. It should single binary the someone can install without root privileges. The fact that I have hundreds of Chromebooks at my school and I can’t use any of them - school IT, correctly, doesn’t want me mucking with advanced settings.

It already has that, if you create setup.cfg you can generate wheel package which can be installed with all dependencies using a single command.

Re: What the Heck Is Pyproject.toml?

#76

Post by hermitdev »

harikb wrote: post #22
fermienrico wrote: post #4

Python desperately needs a better packaging solution than pip from Python Software Foundation. Stop all new features until this - the biggest pain point for Python across all expertise levels from newbies to experienced Python programmers - is officially solved. No pipenv, no poetry, no conda, etc from third party devs who sometimes get tired of the pressure [1]. It is immense. Combine all this virtualenv stuff with…

I teach Python to some middle school kids. Pip vs Pip3 and PYTHONPATH wasted entirety of two class sessions. By the way, Python should go beyond Go. It should single binary the someone can install without root privileges. The fact that I have hundreds of Chromebooks at my school and I can’t use any of them - school IT, correctly, doesn’t want me mucking with advanced settings.

One can easily install Python without root. You have to build from source and use the --prefix option to, say, install under $HOME. Also helpful to avoid the system Python which usually lags far behind on systems like RHEL.

Re: What the Heck Is Pyproject.toml?

#77

Post by kelnos »

jshen wrote: post #45
chc wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Poetry is...a little quirky. I've seen it go into infinite loops trying to resolve projects with, like, 10 dependencies. I'm not really sold on it being better than just making a virtualenv and pip installing.

How do other people replicate your venv? How does production replicate your venv?

You pin all your direct dependencies in requirements.txt, run "pip freeze >requirements-frozen.txt" to get a list of the versions of all dependencies (direct and transitive), and then you ship that.

Replicating is just "virtualenv --python=python3 venv && . ./venv/bin/activate && pip install -r requirements-frozen.txt". Am I missing something here? Yes, to be absolutely sure, you need to have the same versions of python, pip, setuptools, gcc (for C extensions), C library dependencies, etc. on both systems that do the build, but that's the case for pretty much any build system out there if you want repeatable builds.

And if you you just don't feel like dealing with that, you can just use Docker (aka "put my machine in a tarball and ship it").

Re: What the Heck Is Pyproject.toml?

#78

Post by pjmlp »

fermienrico wrote: post #4

Python desperately needs a better packaging solution than pip from Python Software Foundation. Stop all new features until this - the biggest pain point for Python across all expertise levels from newbies to experienced Python programmers - is officially solved. No pipenv, no poetry, no conda, etc from third party devs who sometimes get tired of the pressure [1]. It is immense. Combine all this virtualenv stuff with…

Python is a nice scripting and introduction to programming language, but "It is so far ahead of anything out there for general purpose use." it is not.

Maybe when it has a JIT/AOT story that matches Common Lisp, Scheme, Julia, Smalltalk, JavsScript, or I am able to do refactorings with the easiness that it works on Smalltalk, I can re-consider my opinion.

Re: What the Heck Is Pyproject.toml?

#79

Post by lucasverra »

harikb wrote: post #22
fermienrico wrote: post #4

Python desperately needs a better packaging solution than pip from Python Software Foundation. Stop all new features until this - the biggest pain point for Python across all expertise levels from newbies to experienced Python programmers - is officially solved. No pipenv, no poetry, no conda, etc from third party devs who sometimes get tired of the pressure [1]. It is immense. Combine all this virtualenv stuff with…

I teach Python to some middle school kids. Pip vs Pip3 and PYTHONPATH wasted entirety of two class sessions. By the way, Python should go beyond Go. It should single binary the someone can install without root privileges. The fact that I have hundreds of Chromebooks at my school and I can’t use any of them - school IT, correctly, doesn’t want me mucking with advanced settings.

Why not just repl.it web ide ?

Re: What the Heck Is Pyproject.toml?

#80

Post by web007 »

j88439h84 wrote: post #70
chc wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Poetry is...a little quirky. I've seen it go into infinite loops trying to resolve projects with, like, 10 dependencies. I'm not really sold on it being better than just making a virtualenv and pip installing.

That will probably be solved by the new pip resolver within the next few months.

Did that new resolver finally happen?

The pip SAT-based solver was supposed to land in 2017 or 2018 after a GSoC, and nothing came of it. Is it finally going to use a different heuristic than "#yolo" for picking which version of dependencies to install?

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