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Planning and Managing Layoffs

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Re: Planning and Managing Layoffs

#121

Post by theMajorMinor »

underdeserver wrote: post #106
whatever1 wrote: post #57

These posts bring me to the realization that you should never go above and beyond for a company that you don’t own. Just show up, do the bare minimum to meet expectations, finish your 8 hour shift and go home and enjoy quality time with your family. This way when you get laid-off there is nothing to cry for. You can always find an occupation, but you cannot get back the time that you dedicated to fulfill someone else…

Over time I've come to disagree with this sentiment. If you're a software engineer you should consider yourself a craftsman. Treating your job as a "shift" means you don't care about your craft. The reason I'm not a founder today is that I've observed that founders don't have well rounded lives. I want 5 workdays a week to consist of 8-9 hours of work I'm invested in and care about, 8-9 hours of personal life (relati…

What is the risk here?

A person who pursues their here and now with the most intention and passion will learn more on the job than the same individual who is just "putting their time in." Why can't you help build someone elses dream and your own? Is it possible the details of someone elses dream provide focus for yours?

I think the former individual will better weather a layoff than the latter. Furthermore, the person who is "just putting their time in" is a less attractive hire.

Re: Planning and Managing Layoffs

#122

Post by asdfasgasdgasdg »

underdeserver wrote: post #106
whatever1 wrote: post #57

These posts bring me to the realization that you should never go above and beyond for a company that you don’t own. Just show up, do the bare minimum to meet expectations, finish your 8 hour shift and go home and enjoy quality time with your family. This way when you get laid-off there is nothing to cry for. You can always find an occupation, but you cannot get back the time that you dedicated to fulfill someone else…

Over time I've come to disagree with this sentiment. If you're a software engineer you should consider yourself a craftsman. Treating your job as a "shift" means you don't care about your craft. The reason I'm not a founder today is that I've observed that founders don't have well rounded lives. I want 5 workdays a week to consist of 8-9 hours of work I'm invested in and care about, 8-9 hours of personal life (relati…

I think you can look at this from a mercenary perspective too. It costs nothing more to show up and work hard than it does to show up and do the minimum. You're giving up the same amount of time either way. But there's a lot more upside for hard workers, at least at firms that have a career track for software engineers. There are other variables, but other things being equal, folks who get things done tend to advance faster.

I definitely agree that you should not break your back and work 24/7 for someone else's vision. Or at a minimum you need to consider how factors beyond your control might zero out your investment. But that goes for anything.

Re: Planning and Managing Layoffs

#123

Post by twomoretime »

ProfessorLayton wrote: post #9

As someone who was lucky enough to graduate right into the last recession, I highly empathize with the class of 2020, it is going to be rough for everyone, but especially them. Over a decade later, and only recently have I felt like I was finding my footing career-wise. And now we're all in for another ride. I barely managed to land a job after graduating, made almost no money, got laid off, and the company collapsed…

Maybe this time we will finally reconsider the multigenerational push to get literally everyone into college. I think such sentiment has been increasingly brewing over the last couple years.

Re: Planning and Managing Layoffs

#124

Post by twomoretime »

newswasboring wrote: post #67
hirako2000 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I agree in principle and wish more freedom in Europe, actually even more freedom in the US as well, it's in practice that it fails, especially in certain countries, and always in defavor of the workers. When the capital holders manage to unbalance the relationship with the workers, after failing to rebalance it, politics come into play and rules get voted to protect the workers from certain abuse. I wouldn't sa…

> educate themselves and negociate better, but again it doesn't always work in practice. I can't believe this is even a debate topic. How do you expect an engineer to compete with a lawyer who has studied it for years and has been practicing it for a while.

You don't need to be a legal expert to negotiate with your boss if you're an undercompensated employee...

Re: Planning and Managing Layoffs

#125

Post by lotsofpulp »

elliekelly wrote: post #119
luckylion wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But hiring is much easier too. Largely for that very reason, I believe. If it's hard to get rid of somebody, you will make extra extra extra sure that they are a very good fit.

> If it's hard to get rid of somebody, you will make extra extra extra sure that they are a very good fit. Perhaps I'm in the (American) minority but that seems like a win/win to me. As an employer I'd much rather take a bit more time to find the right person and as an employee I'd gladly exchange a slightly slower market for additional job security/a safety net if things don't work out.

It depends how valuable you are in the labor market. If you are valuable, then you’ll want to be able to gamble a bit and maximize earnings. If you’re not, you’ll want security.

Re: Planning and Managing Layoffs

#126

Post by klenwell »

davidu wrote: post #55
GCA10 wrote: post #45

Most of this is good advice, but I'd disagree with declaring "Today is your last day." I've been on both sides of the layoff conversation, and usually there are some loose ends relating to work-in-progress that can be tidied up with dignity if everyone has a couple days to do it. We're talking about reworking next week's client meeting, or sorting out some team/project responsibilities that ought to be handed off cle…

Yep. I’m not sure you read the whole thing, as I cover the grandma birthday example. Sentiment-wise we agree, tactically it’s still not the best practice. I know it sounds like it is. It really depends on the maturity of the workforce and leadership, as I mention. For a lot of startups, that’s in short supply and just saying today is the last day of work is easiest. It shouldn’t have the feeling tossing them out. It…

Agree with you. Saw something like this not too long ago where it was not handled crisply. There were no long-lasting consequences as far as I know and I can't get into the details but it was just sloppy and leaked all over the place.

I think your advice is well dramatized by this Moneyball scene:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTjhHrcyiQI

Re: Planning and Managing Layoffs

#127

Post by frockington1 »

throwaway8291 wrote: post #99

Why pretend and cloud the idea, that the main reason a person has a "job" today is to accumulate capital for capital. As long as this notion persists (which will be for many more decades I fear) power inequalities will just mean that some will suffer more (those who do not have resources in the first place). Hey, you know, I am really sorry, but thanks for all the capital you helped us to accumulate - which we own an…

In return for helping the company build capital you were paid a monetary value in return. A quick solution to the problem you are presenting is to invest the money you were paid into other companies or start your own company so you too can have 'capital'.

Re: Planning and Managing Layoffs

#128

Post by newswasboring »

twomoretime wrote: post #124
newswasboring wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> educate themselves and negociate better, but again it doesn't always work in practice. I can't believe this is even a debate topic. How do you expect an engineer to compete with a lawyer who has studied it for years and has been practicing it for a while.

You don't need to be a legal expert to negotiate with your boss if you're an undercompensated employee...

1. Lawyers are not just about legality, they are trained negotiators and thinking in contract laws.

2. The manager potentially has/can get negotiation training, you have to pay out of your own pocket for yours.

3. The power dynamic is usually not in your favor, as long as unemployment is above zero in your specific field, it can never be in your favor.

Re: Planning and Managing Layoffs

#129

Post by nogabebop23 »

whatever1 wrote: post #57

These posts bring me to the realization that you should never go above and beyond for a company that you don’t own. Just show up, do the bare minimum to meet expectations, finish your 8 hour shift and go home and enjoy quality time with your family. This way when you get laid-off there is nothing to cry for. You can always find an occupation, but you cannot get back the time that you dedicated to fulfill someone else…

Except developers who are intelligent, creative, optimistic and want to get better will not accept those who just do the "bare minimum" with the mentality of "just do you shift then go home". They will build a culture that demands more and effectively pushes these voluntary baseline performers out, or more likely leave the organization and go somewhere better.

I don't want to be part of things that are average and marginally accepable, and I have a profound dislike of the status quo. It doesn't matter if it's work or shooting hoops with my kids or seeing how long I can stand on one foot - a desire to do a job well and have fun doing it are not mutually exclusive. I'm confident my attitude and approach are not unique to only me.

Re: Planning and Managing Layoffs

#130

Post by seanmcdirmid »

notyourday wrote: post #115
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are only doing a job for the financial payoff, then I guess. If you are interested in the work and want to develop yourself, the Wally mindset is a horrible way to spend your time.

> If you are only doing a job for the financial payoff, then I guess. That's why it is a job, not a hobby.

You spend way too much time at your job not to enjoy it.
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