What is the engineering hiring bar? • Hacker News Board

Re: What is the engineering hiring bar?

#251

Post by DeathArrow » Wed, Apr 01, 2020, 7:00 AM UTC

thaniri wrote: post #95

I applied to a new grad production engineering job at Facebook recently. I probably did about 80 leetcode puzzles, let's just assume that is 1 hour per puzzle. So 80 hours of leetcode puzzles. In addition, 10 hours were spent reviewing my networking trivia (focused on layer 2/3/4 and HTTP). The PE recruiter at the company also provided a study guide packet. I elected to sink about 10-20 hours into studying the Linux…

>There's prestige, salary, and quality of life that just can't be matched by any other tech companies.

To asses the quality of life you have to take into account : payment, time spent on the job and for the job, the amount of work, the prices in the area you live and work, the stress level, the interactions in the company and probably more.

I've done these calculations and for myself, job hunting for FAANG isn't worth. I would however not refuse to work for FAANG if that would match my personal goals, however working for FAANG would not be a goal in itself.

Re: What is the engineering hiring bar?

#252

Post by jjav » Wed, Apr 01, 2020, 7:59 AM UTC

lubesGordi wrote: post #149

strken wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The standards (e.g. algorithmic questions) are bad because A) they're only tangentially related to the work, meaning they include bad hires and exclude good hires B) they put a huge workload on employees who must practice tens or hundreds of hours of underwater basket weaving, time which would be better spent doing almost anything else C) they systemically exclude anyone who can't play the dumb game due to a lack of…

I agree the standards are bad, for senior devs in particular. In addition to your points: Technical understanding of systems in general (networking, CAP, testing, writing maintainable code) are all overlooked in the interview process, though these are what actually make a developer productive. The older you get the more specialized and optimized you are to learning what matters, which is why most of the older guys su…

That's a very good summary. Discerning what truly matters is really the mark of experience. And you're right, algorithm memorization doesn't fit in the top-50 of what matters for a software engineer.

I went to CMU, enjoyed algorithms classes a lot. In the nearly 30-year career since, I've used that knowledge... never. Not once.

It's not about the interview bar being too high. It should be high, mine is. But interviews based on algorithm memorization have the bar in the wrong place, measuring something that has no real-world relevance.

Re: What is the engineering hiring bar?

#253

Post by dang » Wed, Apr 01, 2020, 8:26 AM UTC

omar_a1 wrote: post #220

manfredo wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The tech sector is 80/20 because of hiring bias in the population that defines the workplace demographic. And evidence of that is...? Graduates in the fields of study that feed into the tech workforce are 80/20 - why do we conclude that the industry is biased when it is representative of the population that chooses to go into tech? A valid response is to say that men and women's choices of study are the product of…

Yes, underrepresentation of the population is literally the definition of bias. Unless you want to go with the tautological nonsense you're doubling down on. And you're once again insisting that racial slurs are just as bad as diverse hiring. Really vying for Grand Dragon, eh? I'm sure that if you just explain, once more, in even lengthier detail, how that totally isn't racist, it'll stop making you look like a repre…

You've been breaking the site guidelines horribly, not only in this flamewar but in several others recently, like https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22728949 and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22727685 and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22724383. That's not ok, regardless of how wrong other commenters are or you feel they are. If you keep doing it, we will ban you.

Actually, what you've been doing is already beyond bannable, and we've had to warn you more than once in the past. Please stop this and don't do anything like it on HN again.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: What is the engineering hiring bar?

#254

Post by dang » Wed, Apr 01, 2020, 8:38 AM UTC

manfredo wrote: post #235

omar_a1 wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Do you really think that a company can achieve 50% women in tech without biasing their interview process in favor of women? I strongly recommend looking up the word "bias" in the dictionary. Systemic and institutional bias in tech hiring isn't disproven by of the existence of female-dominated fields. Yes, some fields are female dominated while others are male-dominated. (Such a revelation!) It sounds like you're ang…

> I strongly recommend looking up the word "bias" in the dictionary. From the fist Google result [1], "prejudice in favor of or against one thing, person, or group compared with another, usually in a way considered to be unfair." Representation is not mentioned at all. > Systemic and institutional bias in tech hiring isn't disproven by of the existence of female-dominated fields. Yes, some fields are female dominated…

You've been breaking the site guidelines by perpetuating this flamewar. Please stop, and please don't perpetuate flamewars on HN in the future.

It doesn't look like you have a pattern of doing this in the past on HN, and (although I've only read a small portion of this thread) I don't see how your comments deserved abuse. But it's necessary to recognize when an argument is going bad fast, and to step away from those sorts of exchanges. HN is for curious conversation, not ideological battle, and when it comes to these tedious tit-for-tat spats the crowd the right hand side of the page because neither party can let go, it really doesn't matter who wins the argument. Actually it would be better to define 'winning' as being first to let go.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: What is the engineering hiring bar?

#255

Post by dang » Wed, Apr 01, 2020, 8:46 AM UTC

omar_a1 wrote: post #243

manfredo wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is a part of it. There is also an unconscious bias against women in hiring. There's plenty of overt sexism, but unconscious biases are significant too. That whole "gut feel"-based hire is remarkably sexist and racist. As are resume callbacks in favoring male and anglophile names. Chances are you're citing a fabricated study: https://www.vox.com/2019/2/20/18232762/gender-diversity-tech... Again, when we actuall…

Ah yes, another top-tier scientific publication: Vox. Was that research peer-reviewed by Cosmo? I'm delighted that you think that puts the issue of bias in hiring to rest. Clearly sexism and racism were abstract concepts I just made up for the purposes of this thread, and not something that has real, detrimental consequences to people in your workplace. Or, at least it doesn't effect you, so it must not affect anyone…

The level of abuse that you stooped to in this thread is shocking. I'm going to ascribe it to going on tilt, which happens sometimes when another commenter is extremely wrong, or it extremely feels like they are. We've all been there. But please don't behave like this, or anything remotely close to this, on Hacker News again.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: What is the engineering hiring bar?

#256

Post by omar_a1 » Wed, Apr 01, 2020, 8:58 AM UTC

dang wrote: post #253

omar_a1 wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, underrepresentation of the population is literally the definition of bias. Unless you want to go with the tautological nonsense you're doubling down on. And you're once again insisting that racial slurs are just as bad as diverse hiring. Really vying for Grand Dragon, eh? I'm sure that if you just explain, once more, in even lengthier detail, how that totally isn't racist, it'll stop making you look like a repre…

You've been breaking the site guidelines horribly, not only in this flamewar but in several others recently, like https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22728949 and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22727685 and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22724383 . That's not ok, regardless of how wrong other commenters are or you feel they are. If you keep doing it, we will ban you. Actually, what you've been doing is a…

Fair. But as long as I keep coming across racially insensitive comments like in the original post, and commenters who strongly believe these kinds of comments are a legitimate perspective, I'm not going to be able to just leave them as is. And I don't see a way to constructively engage with those kinds of comments that doesn't end in this type of exchange.

Consequently, I'm going to request that you delete my account (...If that's a thing that you can do on here. I'm not really sure. Otherwise a ban seems close enough.) I think just lurking on here would be a better option under these circumstances.

Sorry for the trouble.

Re: What is the engineering hiring bar?

#257

Post by Psychlist » Wed, Apr 01, 2020, 9:17 AM UTC

austincheney wrote: post #79

twomoretime wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>And that helps us understand why Recursive Cactus spends so much time practicing. He’s training himself partially because his current company isn’t developing his skills. I develop software full time and have some 10 years of experience depending on how you count it, and I'm absolutely terrible at leetcode style problems and find whiteboard questions difficult for non programming reasons. I know it wasn't the point…

I remember one time I was hiring for a JavaScript developer. The most important technical competency was a brief working knowledge of the DOM. The actual position required modifications to pages for A/B tests and jQuery was either too slow or broke in production when other developers used it for their test code. Of everybody that passed through HR to me I sent out a notice that there would be a minor code assessment…

I've had very similar experiences with Delphi, Jade and embedded C developer interviews. It makes me wonder why other companies don't actually care whether I can write new code, only whether I can replay algorithms.

When interviewing I build a set of simple examples like yours and run people through them, normally in person. How they talk to me is also important.

Albeit here in Australia FAANG interviews are mostly regarded as yet another US foible like driving on the wrong side of the road. I've had exactly one attempt in ~10 job changes but they failed (I walked out as soon as they made it obvious that they were serious... but were not offering FAANG money).

Re: What is the engineering hiring bar?

#258

Post by Psychlist » Wed, Apr 01, 2020, 9:19 AM UTC

PascLeRasc wrote: post #37

christiansakai wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suck at writing resumes, to the point that recruiters and even hiring managers at companies that I applied to give me a pity and even talk on how to improve my resume DURING INITIAL PHONE CALL lmao.

That probably means you're underselling yourself. Have you tried taking their advice?

I've had that advice myself. and they were right. Once my resume and application was cleaned up I found better jobs.

Re: What is the engineering hiring bar?

#259

Post by Psychlist » Wed, Apr 01, 2020, 9:28 AM UTC

twomoretime wrote: post #18

chrisweekly wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The tech interview process is just so badly messed up. Even if the process were a reasonable proxy for IQ (it's not), or correlated somewhat with use of actual required technical skills (it doesn't), it still almost entirely ignores the EQ (emotional intelligence) and CQ (cultural intelligence) factors which comprise the other 2 legs of the "good hire" stool.

>Even if the process were a reasonable proxy for IQ (it's not), or correlated somewhat with use of actual required technical skills (it doesn't) I wouldn't be so quick to presume that FAANG IQs aren't above average. >the EQ (emotional intelligence) and CQ (cultural intelligence) factors which comprise the other 2 legs of the "good hire" stool EQ may be difficult to measure but the spoken part of the interview should…

> the only surefire way to hire is to bring people on temporarily and evaluate their performance in 1-3 months

In countries that have decent leave policies this might be possible for people who have jobs, but it would be expensive then and even more expensive for others. I can see myself taking a month off to go and work at Elite Company X, then going back, working out my notice, then starting the new job. But that stretchs the hiring period and makes them vulnerable to counteroffers (I can give notice to Elite Company X too).

But where I am now, no way. I can't take a month off on less than about six months notice, and right now I wouldn't get it because of the pandemic. So in the event that someone wanted to hire me, or someone senior in the US (etc), they'd have to front enough money to make it worth while quitting my current job on the off chance I might make it past the trial period.

Albeit when I was younger and jobs were much easier to get, I used to habitually negotiate salary at new jobs by saying "pay me what you want, then in three months you either start paying me what I'm asking or dump me". It is effective, sounds a bit arrogant (and not everyone likes that), and only once did someone try to negotiate after the trial period. That was a very short negotiation and they decided they'd rather keep me.

Re: What is the engineering hiring bar?

#260

Post by Psychlist » Wed, Apr 01, 2020, 9:37 AM UTC

thaniri wrote: post #95

I applied to a new grad production engineering job at Facebook recently. I probably did about 80 leetcode puzzles, let's just assume that is 1 hour per puzzle. So 80 hours of leetcode puzzles. In addition, 10 hours were spent reviewing my networking trivia (focused on layer 2/3/4 and HTTP). The PE recruiter at the company also provided a study guide packet. I elected to sink about 10-20 hours into studying the Linux…

> salary, and quality of life

I like to calculate dollars per hour worked when comparing roles, and I use a fairly generous overtime multiplier (ie, 35 hours a week base, then time and a half for the next 10 hours, then double time the next 15 then you can take your job and shove it)

All too often the big, hard, prestigious companies turn out to pay the same hourly rate as the second-tier places if not slightly less. But the same quality of life at 45 hours a week costs a lot more than at 35 hours a week. So you have to look at the prestige benefits and hope they pay off.