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What is the engineering hiring bar?

blog.interviewing.io

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Re: What is the engineering hiring bar?

#111
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Even if the process were a reasonable proxy for IQ (it's not), or correlated somewhat with use of actual required technical skills (it doesn't) I wouldn't be so quick to presume that FAANG IQs aren't above average. >the EQ (emotional intelligence) and CQ (cultural intelligence) factors which comprise the other 2 legs of the "good hire" stool EQ may be difficult to measure but the spoken part of the interview should…

One answer to your last: people aren't going to leave their permanent job for one that has a risk of being temporary.

If you make it as far as internship to hire, the company is signaling more of a commitment than just temp work. It's basically like a probationary period.

Also this would be especially good for graduates with little work experience.

Re: What is the engineering hiring bar?

#112

I had a conversation with a fellow engineer and we pretty much concluded that our current company would not hire us with our current resumes if we had to go through the interviewing process. And we are generally viewed as some of the higher performers. I bet the same is true for a lot of other companies.

I too would most likely not get hired at my current company with the current interviewing process (which I am asked to do technical portions of!). Company growth really changes things.

Re: What is the engineering hiring bar?

#113

Apologies in advance for being harsh, but are you a member in order of your state association of engineers, did you pass the FE exam?, was your school accredited to grant engineering diplomas? If the answer is not, please do not call yourself engineer

lol

Re: What is the engineering hiring bar?

#114
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like a lot of these discussions end up being something along the lines of "the standards are bad because they exclude me, therefore there shouldn't be any standards at all" (just with a lot more words).

The standards (e.g. algorithmic questions) are bad because A) they're only tangentially related to the work, meaning they include bad hires and exclude good hires B) they put a huge workload on employees who must practice tens or hundreds of hours of underwater basket weaving, time which would be better spent doing almost anything else C) they systemically exclude anyone who can't play the dumb game due to a lack of…

> A) they're only tangentially related to the work, meaning they include bad hires and exclude good hires

And that's the reason many companies have to set the standards so high in the first place: excluding false positives (bad hires) is so important in practice that this distorts the whole hiring process. Fine as far as that goes of course, but it does mean that people who practice their leetcode questions are basically stuck with very expensive (per B and C) lottery tickets.

I think everyone knows at this point that algorithmic puzzles are not desirable; the real question is whether one can do better, even at FAANG scale.

Re: What is the engineering hiring bar?

#115
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we could quantify the net effects of sexism and racism in hiring and attrition, we could compare whether the incentives mentioned offset the sexism and racism equivalently. But, since we don't have a means of doing so, it's a futile discussion on this site. Also worth pointing out that just hiring a diverse candidate is pretty meaningless if they get bullied or harassed to the point of being forced out in a short…

Whether one thinks that discrimination in hiring is justified to offset suspected discrimination in other areas is besides the point. The point is, there exists discrimination in hiring that results in women and URM candidates getting offers that would not have been obtained were it not for diversity status. The opportunities of people categorized as diverse in tech company interviewing is substantially different fro…

No, it's not an SF Bay Area thing. I've moved to SF from the Midwest a year ago, and have been called racial slurs more times during my year here than in my entire adult life living in a medium-sized Midwestern town. Shall we assume that because you haven't had a similar experience or personally faced discrimination on the job that no one else has?

Exaggerating the status of "diversity hires" just ignores the harsh reality of rampant discrimination in the tech industry. And not just on the basis of sex and race, but age and disability too. There wouldn't need to be such a hard push for underrepresented candidates if it were a more welcoming, diverse workforce in the first place.

Re: What is the engineering hiring bar?

#116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Expect at minimum 2 Medium difficulty questions in a phone interview that need to be able to be solved in optimal space time complexity in under 45 mins I see this being repeated on Leetcode and Blind, but it is not my experience at all. In 2019, I got Senior level (L5/E5) offers from everywhere I applied, including Facebook and Google. I never solved more than a single medium problem in 45m-1h. I was asked a hard…

What is considered a medium problem? Is this in terms of equivalence of problem levels found on leetcode and such? I have yet to do the grind. My current job is great and pays FAANG level- I hope to not have to engage in this crap.

Medium is defined as Leetcode's problem tagged in Medium category. It is quite blurry to be honest because some questions should be on Easy category and some Easy questions should be Medium and some Medium should be Hard and some Hard should be Medium.

That's good, keep that! Don't get involved in this crap. I have to do it out of necessity.

Re: What is the engineering hiring bar?

#117
After 9 years at the same company, I left my job at the beginning of January 2020 to dedicate myself to leetcoding and interview practicing in the hope of getting hired at a FAANG, more specifically Google.

I really started dedicating all my time to interviewing January 1st.

It is now March 31st and I am now abandoning the idea of getting hired at a FAANG, or any larger-sized startup and will target early startups with lower entry bar.

Yesterday I had my “virtual on-site” interview with Google and it went poorly.

The 1st interview was behavioral and I think it went fine, but I’m not sure the interviewer was thrilled.

The 2nd interview was horrible. First, the interviewer had a bad internet connection which made it hard to understand her (I asked her to turn off her video to help, which she did), 2nd she jumped immediately to the problem without introducing herself or anything which made it feel like she was in a rush, 3rd she simply started reciting her problem statement, which was hard to make sense of because of her bad internet connection. I asked her if we could write it down in the shared google doc, so she proceeded to copy/paste a blob of text that seemed to be taken from the _middle of a problem statement_. It had no context and no actual instruction like “write a function that will calculate x and y”. My NDA unfortunately prevents me from sharing the actual thing. Because of this, I did not know what I was supposed to do. I asked her multiple times “so, should I write a function to do this and this?” and she kept reciting the ambiguous problem statement over and over in an impatient and dismissive manner. I felt completely out of place. Then when I finally started making a little bit of progress on guessing what she actually wanted me to do, I started hearing background noise of someone chopping vegetables, and moving things around: extremely distracting. I would ask her specific questions and from her lag in answering and her short 2 words answers I just know she wasn’t paying attention. It took all the strength in me to not tell her how disrespectful it felt to be interviewing with someone that clearly did not want to be here and wasn’t paying attention. At the end of the interview I thanked her a lot, smiled big and swallowed my pride.

I left for our 1 hour break and took a walk to reset my emotions and tell myself that the interview could still go well and that I still had my chances.

The 3rd interview went well. The interviewer had a good connection, a good mic, was understandable, introduced himself and even said “before we start, I want to remind you that if one of your interviews went bad, don’t sweat it, it’s all fine. We’re here to have a conversation. I’m not looking for a right or wrong answer, I just want to see your thought process”. It took him literally 2 minutes to set me up for success. He then proceeded to give me a problem statement, with some context around it, and we started proceeding to _have a real conversation_. I wrote code that, according to my interviewer, compiled correctly and was close to the actual code it was based off of. I left this interview feeling good

4th interview went bad. Interviewer was 10 minutes late and had a bad connection, but aside from that introduced himself correctly, gave me a clear problem statement and although did not talked much at all during the interview, he did give me a few hints here and there. The reason I failed is that I couldn’t solve a simple algorithm and started panicking internally. All on me. I left the interview hoping the next one would go better.

5th (and last) interview went meh. It was a system design interview. I was hoping to be having a conversation with the interviewer but he just was speaking much at all.

I hung up and cried a little. It’s really hard emotionally to accept this.

Before my Google interviewed I got rejected by AirBnB, Twitter told me they don’t think a senior role is adequate and will see if they have “mid-level” roles (which is totally fine, but I’m left wondering if that’s not just a way of rejecting my candidacy), and I cancelled Facebook because what Airbnb taught me is that I’m just not ready. That’s not a lot of interviews you’ll tell me, but I spent _months_ preparing.

Because I know my algorithm and problem solving skills are lesser, I spent hours studying on leetcode, reading an operating systems book, reviewed “cracking the coding interview”, reviewed “introduction to algorithms”, re-read some chapters of “TCP/IP illustrated”, spent hours watching system design videos, hours watching algorithm videos. I spent $5000 on an interviewing/algorithm bootcamp.

I know that I am not a bad engineer. I started programming at 10 years old (I’m 33), taught myself VB, C and C++ (though I haven’t coded in these for many years now). Computers have been my life’s passion. I designed my former’s company infrastructure and made it scalable and resilient. I was a major influencer in my team and my coworkers trusted me. I know I’m a good system administrator; I might be less good a developer but I know how to code well; I know how to influence my coworker into following best practices, reading/writing documentation, being security conscious; I stay informed on the latest trends, I try new technologies, learn new languages, not even out of necessity but because that’s what I love.

But none of this seems to be enough.

And maybe it really isn’t for a company like Google. And maybe I wouldn’t be successful at Google if they hired me.

What I know is that these past 3 months have left me with little confidence about my skills and just wondering if I’m cut out for this. I’m trying hard to not feel defeated, but damn, that hiring bar in FAANG interviews can really make you feel like crap.

Re: What is the engineering hiring bar?

#118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Expect at minimum 2 Medium difficulty questions in a phone interview that need to be able to be solved in optimal space time complexity in under 45 mins I see this being repeated on Leetcode and Blind, but it is not my experience at all. In 2019, I got Senior level (L5/E5) offers from everywhere I applied, including Facebook and Google. I never solved more than a single medium problem in 45m-1h. I was asked a hard…

What is considered a medium problem? Is this in terms of equivalence of problem levels found on leetcode and such? I have yet to do the grind. My current job is great and pays FAANG level- I hope to not have to engage in this crap.

On leetcode they are literally marked "Medium". Mostly questions that involve some sort of BFS or DFS on graphs, figuring out the next available time slot in a meeting calendar, figuring out the best time to buy and sell a stock given the daily price, stuff like that.

Re: What is the engineering hiring bar?

#119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So basically I know a few people who can't even solve an Easy Leetcode questions. They got in as SWE L3/L4, E3/E4 and I also know one L5. Can you help me in explaining why? I don't have the intention of looking down on people. I'm just gathering data. If I can find a reasonable explanation then I want to take a look at it, and learn from it, and see where did I do wrong, so I can improve and pass the interviews next…

I knew a lot of people at FAANG that were L4/L5 that couldn't solve Leetcode easies. Leetcode isn't part of the job, just the interviews. Getting an offer is not just a matter of solving a programming problem. It's about how you communicate. And, of course, if you're a brilliant jerk ability doesn't matter: you're not getting hired. If you're not getting past the interviews despite being a strong programmer, you may…

Your experience matches my anecdote. Hence you can imagine my total confusion once I got the interview myself (Google, 2 times, phone to onsite, Amazon one time to onsite, Facebook, one phone). In my latest FB phone for example. I was asked a Medium question that I've never seen before, and nevertheless I solved it. How do I know? Because apparently that was taken straight from Leetcode, and the interviewer didn't even bother to change the question. I copy pasted my solution to Leetcode, run it, pass 100% test cases.

I got rejected....

I asked for feedback from the recruiter. Apparently I needed to do 2 Medium questions in the allocated time. I solve the first Medium question in about 30 mins, and there was only 10 mins left for the 2nd one so the interviewer didn't bother to ask me the 2nd one.

The scenario that I just told you above is not unique. Venture enough to cscareerquestions and Leetcode forum you'll be surprised to see many many worse experience than this.

Re: What is the engineering hiring bar?

#120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>so "(a lot) higher pay" is a moot point no its not. I know ppl who quit MS and reapply later to get placed into a higher tier after they interviewed there again. Jumping jobs into a higher tier is easier way to get a raise than grinding at the same job.

Just adding I had to do this at a large non-faang corp. Just curious how common this is, it seems like the only work around to strict HR caps on raises.

Jumping ship for a promotion at the original company is a super common strategy in other sectors too.
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