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On “Armchair Epidemiology”

scottaaronson.com

71–79 of 79 posts

Re: On “Armchair Epidemiology”

#71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is benefit to a team with diverse backgrounds. Mathematical and statistical knowledge is vital, but so is understanding how hospitals and humans react to disease and interventions. As for looking back at medicine in 200 years as blood letting and humours, I think that is to misunderstand medicine in its entirety. Modern medicine is evidence based where it can be, mixed with a high level of uncertainty and best…

As an addition, I was browsing the r/physics subreddit and came across a very relevant post from a physicist’s point of view. https://www.reddit.com/r/Physics/comments/frsd16/the_best_th...

I disagree with that post completely.

If you look at the stuff coming out of Imperial and Oxford in recent weeks, there are a huge number of basic problems. Their papers can't be replicated for multiple reasons. They're using known-bad input data. They're not providing uncertainty bounds. There's no peer review. The Imperial paper assumed constant hospital capacity. Their papers reach diametrically opposite conclusions. They have a track record of model failure.

It's all practically a poster child for the replication crisis.

The /r/physics post criticises physicists who write some code to do basic curve fitting. Has he looked at the Oxford epidemiology paper? It is by all accounts literally curve fitting to the first 15 days of outbreak and reaches diametrically opposite conclusions to the Imperial paper.

It criticises people who write papers and then upload them to arXiv because reporters will find it and create panic. Would this person prefer people to use the Imperial/Oxford technique of sending papers directly to journalists, and entirely skipping the whole upload to arXiv step?

It blames physicists for creating "denial": "You become a punchline to a denier that says, they can't decide if there's going to be hundred thousand cases or a hundred million cases! Scientists don't know anything!" - guess what, they're saying that already and are going to say it a lot more because epidemiologists themselves keep contradicting and criticising each other for doing bad work, in public. Additionally, there are enough people with scientific literacy to understand the limits of statistics and modelling out there. They aren't as easily confused as this person rather seems to assume (does he have any data showing that people conflate epidemiology with physics?).

Right now I absolutely want to see papers written by physicists studying COVID-19. Why - because physics is a significantly more rigorous field than epidemiology. I trust the average physicist to have at least slightly higher standards, for instance I trust them to at least pretend to care about statistical uncertainty, and I suspect many of them will upload their source code. I don't expect any of them to email their paper straight to known-friendly newspapers.

Re: On “Armchair Epidemiology”

#72
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That isn't what Scott is saying. His default was to listen to those in authority and responsible. Instead he wishes that he listened to those who did independent thinking and their own projections with verifiable reasoning from the data. This doesn't mean don't listen to epidemiologists. There were plenty of epidemiologists who were plenty concerned in early February. It means do not pay particular heed to epidemiolo…

Did people "thinking independently" and "making their own projections" do a better job--on average, not just looking at the outliers--than the more established experts? I don't think we have any empirical data to support that claim.

Probably not but consider the likely reason: it seems there's no data right now of sufficient quality for making projections. The projections we have been seeing are all based on the same dodgy stats that we read about new problems with every day. A truly quantitatively minded person would evaluate the data quality and not try to build models to begin with.

I think I agree with btilly. A lot of people are upset right now by the lack of traditional deference to experts, by which they mean academics, not e.g. actuaries working for large reinsurers or even actual working doctors in many cases. In contrast I find it exciting.

What we're witnessing here is a total and complete democratisation of data and analysis. An entire planet's worth of brainpower is focused on this subject right now. Every day those people are using the internet to quickly sift through data, statistics, reporting and analysis to try and make sense of the chaotic picture with which we're presented. Some are trying to establish the bounds on what we know about the infection, others are looking at how to rapidly scale ventilator manufacture and so on.

If you've followed the replication crisis closely over the years, like I have, one of the overriding themes is how academic analysis is made brittle by:

1. The subtlety and trickiness of statistics.

2. The vast extent to which it's relied on despite this difficulty.

3. The relative lack of cross-discipline collaboration that could solve the combination of 1+2.

Lots of fields (not restricted to psychology) have been seriously battered by the collapse of whole research areas. I've heard that one reason VCs prefer to invest in software startups over biotech is the typical biotech startup begins with an academic paper, and around 50% of the time it doesn't replicate. Even AI has had replication issues!

One of the conclusions that's been drawn is that many academics don't have enough statistical training to do what they're trying to do, partly because statistics is genuinely extremely hard. In computer science the general maxim that you don't invent your own ciphers because they'll probably break is well known - everyone relies on standard cryptography made by a relatively small community of people these days. Advanced statistics feels about that level of difficulty to me, based on what I've seen, but everyone rolls their own stats. Perhaps there aren't enough statisticians to go round, but there's also a cultural issue. For instance academic modellers rarely work with professional programmers to productionise their models, a practice that's standard in the private sector.

So yeah, btilly has it right. We're seeing a slow, slow, veeerry slow recognition that truly quant thinking is so rare and highly valuable that it's more important than the background of the person. Finance already went through this process years ago: the clear-out of traditional finance types with traditional finance culture in favour of quants doing mathematical analysis is large done already. In other areas of the economy it's barely got started. In the UK Cummings did at least try to hire a superforecaster into Number 10, to his credit, but the media immediately went bezerk and engaged in a massive smear campaign. The guy just walked away in disgust. A superforecaster in government sure would be useful right about now :(

Re: On “Armchair Epidemiology”

#73
post #2

If this current situation has taught me anything it is that the internet is a mush of armchair garbage and it’s overwhelming to decipher- yes even what I’m typing now. The whole thing has me desperate to ignore everyone and read a book. What a joke; to think we are all somehow experts.

I agree, I still cannot make up my mind about masks... It seems like "back in the day" people trusted the experts, becuase well, there weren't many alternatives (?); but now thanks to the internet everyone can google for a while and feel like they have a worthwhile opinion. It seems like now it's possible to find an expert (and/or data) to justify any opinion. I am not saying this is bad, but that it's just different…

I agree, I still cannot make up my mind about masks..

What's so hard about masks? That's one area that experts seem pretty consistent on, and what they say makes sense. It is slightly complicated but not contradictory.

Wearing a mask doesn't do that much to prevent you from getting sick. But it does a lot to prevent you from getting others sick.

If there is a limited supply of masks, the best people to give them to are people are at high likelihood of being sick and come face to face with lots of people who get sick easily. Which is to say medical staff.

If there were masks to go around, we'd want everyone wearing them as a precaution. So that you're not getting people sick even if you don't yet know that you are sick.

Some countries, like Taiwan, already make enough masks that they can actually do that. The USA does not. In time we should fix that.

Can you find anyone whose expertise is generally respected who says something that disagrees with what I just said?

Re: On “Armchair Epidemiology”

#74
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an addition, I was browsing the r/physics subreddit and came across a very relevant post from a physicist’s point of view. https://www.reddit.com/r/Physics/comments/frsd16/the_best_th...

I disagree with that post completely. If you look at the stuff coming out of Imperial and Oxford in recent weeks, there are a huge number of basic problems. Their papers can't be replicated for multiple reasons. They're using known-bad input data. They're not providing uncertainty bounds. There's no peer review. The Imperial paper assumed constant hospital capacity. Their papers reach diametrically opposite conclusio…

Tbh I don’t disagree with quite a few of your points. A lot of papers out there atm are pretty poor quality. But having more similar papers won’t help matters. Wait for the high quality papers that will come from more valid high quality data and models that haven’t been rushed out. As for physicist have higher rigour, I’m sorry but that’s just arrogance. There are good scientists and bad scientists, and whether they studied physics or epidiemoology isn’t the point. Stop assuming that just because people studied a subject you like and are familiar with that they are better than the other group.

Re: On “Armchair Epidemiology”

#75

There are two things seriously wrong with this article. (1) It treats authorities and non-authorities as monolithic. Far from it. There were plenty of serious, well qualified epidemiologists who were warning of the danger, and they were right. There were even more non-serious people using their popularity in completely unrelated fields to minimize the danger, and they were wrong. Sadly there still are, most definitel…

good points, though I'm a bit bothered with your second point here.

First of all, I think calling this a single event is reductionist. We're talking about weeks- months, even- of experts and non experts warning about this, and the systems of authorities failed completely to react in time. We're not talking about failing to heed an important warning once, we're talking about a long string of choices here.

Secondly, This isn't just a prominent case, it is a very important case. Treating this as a series of bernoulli trials with a single (statistically irrelevant) failure is an extremely reductionist model of the reality here.

While your conclusion of trusting science, empirical facts and analysis rings true to me, I think we should be wary of overly simplifying the subject matter.

Re: On “Armchair Epidemiology”

#76

> I sent a quick reply two minutes later: > For now, I think the risk from the ordinary flu is much much greater! But worth watching to see if it becomes a real pandemic. Nope. Lost all credibility right there. Do not pass GO, do not collect 2 minutes of attention. Sorry. Oh, you've learned something from the error and you've updated your priors? Great, good for you. You're still unreliable.

This seems overly harsh. Few people took COVID-19 seriously on Feb 4, so this standard makes almost everyone have no credibility, including people who don't admit to the error. All humans are unreliable.

> Few people took COVID-19 seriously on Feb 4

Plenty who were paying attention took it seriously

Re: On “Armchair Epidemiology”

#77
post #31

This whole mess has been a repudiation of business-as-usual politics, but it has not been a repudiation of scientific experts. Scientific experts across the world have been alarmed for months now. The only problem is that, as with any new and uncertainty situation, the error bars started absolutely enormous, so the range of expert opinion has been wide. This is the case in any crisis. With the benefit of hindsight, y…

It has been a repudiation of the communication layers between experts and average people, as well, which I think might be more of Aaronson's ire than experts qua experts (it's certainly more of my ire, but I don't have his platform).

A standard of "scientists dabbling in journalism to improve communication" instead of "journalists dabbling in communicating science" would likely have gone a long way to improving the civilian response and trust in experts.

There's also the factor of the "Noble Lie" dishonesty around wearing masks. I suspect intellectual-ish contrarians (like Aaronson et al) are more angered by this than the average person, but we ended up with shortages and sellouts anyways: a significant number of non-experts didn't buy into that noble lie so the experts/organizations that pushed it (not to be confused with ALL experts) burned a lot of good will to basically no effect.

ETA: I considered replying to your comment about the Harvard epidemiologists but would rather edit it in here to avoid two replies to one person: I think that's a great example of my point. The story wasn't broken by bloggers, but bloggers were more likely to be amplifying the concerned experts than our "traditional media powerhouses."

Re: On “Armchair Epidemiology”

#78
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree with that post completely. If you look at the stuff coming out of Imperial and Oxford in recent weeks, there are a huge number of basic problems. Their papers can't be replicated for multiple reasons. They're using known-bad input data. They're not providing uncertainty bounds. There's no peer review. The Imperial paper assumed constant hospital capacity. Their papers reach diametrically opposite conclusio…

Tbh I don’t disagree with quite a few of your points. A lot of papers out there atm are pretty poor quality. But having more similar papers won’t help matters. Wait for the high quality papers that will come from more valid high quality data and models that haven’t been rushed out. As for physicist have higher rigour, I’m sorry but that’s just arrogance. There are good scientists and bad scientists, and whether they…

I agree with you on one level - the difference in rigour I perceive is a function of surrounding culture in a field, not the specific people who are in it. On the other hand if you look at the confidence levels required to publish something as a discovery, they're much higher in physics, partly that's fundamental to the field and partly it's that in physics scientists are OK with statements like "to make the next discovery we must spend 10 years building a billion dollar machine that will require international cooperation on a scale never seen before". Whereas in most other fields their ambition stops with collecting a bunch of grad students, or downloading data from sources that wasn't meant for the purpose to which it's put.

Re: On “Armchair Epidemiology”

#79

Let's talk first about the domain experts, professors in prestigious universities, that were reassuring the public that COVID-19 is no way more fatal than the seasonal flu [1]. The same moment that the ICUs in Italy and Spain were already overwhelmed and the physicians could not find the necessary protective equipment to keep saving lives. Are there gonna be any legal repercussions to these? [1] https://www.wsj.com/a…

Those two things aren't necessarily in contradiction. In really bad flu seasons hospitals run out of ICU capacity too, you see triage being done in tents, wards being converted, doctors talking about "wartime" like conditions etc.
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