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The U.S. tried to build a new fleet of ventilators

nytimes.com

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Re: The U.S. tried to build a new fleet of ventilators

#321

Post by cycrutchfield »

mistermann wrote: post #241
greedo wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not the age of the pilot or doctor, but the experience. In WW2, some pilots were considered combat capable after 150 hours of flight time, basically 6 months. They died. Eventually the flight programs ended up taking 1.5-2 years on average to crank out a new pilot. A pilot that also died quickly. Now in war, you have to throw bodies at a problem, and if the bodies end up 6 ft under, that's war. But generally bad…

Technically, it is the skill level. Indeed there is a very strong causal relationship between skill and experience, but we have no data in the realm being discussed so it may be helpful if we were to explicitly realize we are speculating, as I'd think this may improve the quality of our thinking and decision making.

What value did you add to this conversation?

Re: The U.S. tried to build a new fleet of ventilators

#322

Post by cycrutchfield »

mistermann wrote: post #247
cycrutchfield wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If corebit happens to be an Operations Research specialist then it is reasonably likely that they would be better at running an ICU than a typical professional medical worker. Why do people on HN consistently presume that they somehow know better than the experts? It’s distressing to me that anybody can say something like this with a straight face.

A scarily high percentage of comments in this thread are people making presumptions, and asserting them as if they are fact . Some of those comments were written by you.

A scarily high percentage of comments in this thread are from ignoramuses adding nothing of value to the discussion. Some of those comments were written by you.

Re: The U.S. tried to build a new fleet of ventilators

#323

Post by DonHopkins »

mistermann wrote: post #288
omar_a1 wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it's common sense that an invasive medical procedure needs to be administered by someone with some semblance of competence in medicine, if you expect the patient to have a shot at not dying. An emergency doesn't change the hard technical requirement of administering ventilation. Or rather, this should be common sense, but the over-inflated egos on HN don't understand that it takes more than knowing which butt…

> Because it's common sense that an invasive medical procedure needs to be administered by someone with some semblance of competence in medicine, if you expect the patient to have a shot at not dying. Common sense does not determine how difficult something is, how difficult it is determines that. Reality, for the most part, flows into the brain from the outside world, not the other way around. > An emergency doesn't…

Here's something relevant to the topic at hand:

Hey sealion, I'm still waiting for you to answer a bunch of questions from the thread you ran away from. Why were you so interested in having a deep discussion and exploring all the interesting topics and directions of conversation at one point, then suddenly you disappeared without another word after replying twice to one of my postings, claiming that you were to busy to reply right then (which was strange because you replied twice but didn't address any of my points), but promised that you would think about it and write more about it later (which never happened).

Don't make promises that you don't intend to keep, dude. It makes you look like an insincere sealion troll who doesn't believe anything he says, and knows he can't win the arguments he starts on the facts, and hates the glaring contradictions of what he's already written pointed out, and retreats with his tail between his legs as soon as he realizes he's rhetorically painted himself into a corner.

You remember: like the corner you painted yourself into by claiming that you only want to maximize everyone's happiness, then admitting that you support, condone, vote for, make excuses for, carry the water for, and don't mind racism, sexism, homophobia, xenophobia, pathological lying, and many other terrible character flaws, including lying to get re-elected even if it costs the lives of millions of Americans, for example.

You're not very polite to the people whose lives you don't mind destroying for political advantage. If your politeness weren't just an insincere passive-aggressive act to effect sealioning, then you'd actually finish the fights you keep picking instead of running away from them when it becomes obvious you can't derail them from the direction they're leading.

Re: The U.S. tried to build a new fleet of ventilators

#324

Post by cycrutchfield »

mistermann wrote: post #237
cycrutchfield wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ask any doc if they want 4th year medical students to help in the ICU with COVID-19 patients and they will say “No, they would most likely be a hindrance rather than help”. If a 4th year medical student can’t help, then why do you suppose somebody with zero training would?

Has such a survey of doctors actually been performed, that also includes a range of scenarios under which the doctor might have to make such a decision?

You should survey your aquatic friends, little sealion. Let’s reserve this forum for people having actual discussions.

Re: The U.S. tried to build a new fleet of ventilators

#325

Post by omar_a1 »

DonHopkins wrote: post #319
omar_a1 wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been making liberal use of the flag button for the trolling comments once I picked up on the pattern.

Thank you! His pattern of sealioning is outrageously obvious and blatantly unoriginal and formulaic. It's as if he has a dog-eared copy of "Sealioning for Dummies" marked up with yellow highter pen and bookmarked with post-it pads, that he's following step by step, page by page, checking off each technique and trick as he tries it. Sealioning is related to the Gish Gallop, to which there are some countermeasures that…

It gets under my skin too (as is the intention), but I think the best tactic is to just flag trolling comments into oblivion, and otherwise ignore to the extent that it's possible. With enough of flags the comments will be moderated out and disappear. Continued trolling will probably result in a ban, as will perpetuating flamewars.

Re: The U.S. tried to build a new fleet of ventilators

#326

Post by DonHopkins »

omar_a1 wrote: post #310
jacquesm wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ditto.

On the bright side, I learned the term "sealioning" today, so thanks for that! :D

Sealioning is a Gamergate tactic, so it's quite possible he's one of those disruptive children, and that's where he learned it from. He's certainly doing it regularly and systematically and by the book, as if it's a job he's been trained to do, he has a checklist of talking points and techniques, and is being paid for his time, number of posts, and number of words.

https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/sea-lioning

Another tactic you can see him practicing, which we're all familiar with coming out of the White House, is psychological projection. Trolls like misterman are fully aware they're sealioning, know all the terminology because they study and emulate it, and they love to throw around and misuse terms like that themselves, to attack other sincere people for doing what they're actually maliciously doing themselves, to make it seem like it's just "both sides", which it's not.

It's not just an internet thing. Here's an example of how racists sealion and project in real life:

https://medium.com/@codeGrit/a-story-about-sealions-gamergat...

Re: The U.S. tried to build a new fleet of ventilators

#327

Post by cycrutchfield »

mistermann wrote: post #290
cycrutchfield wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Of course, it flies in the face of a common sense view that someone careful, able to follow orders, just hold things or press button etc would provide some use in a world where the doctors are fundamentally limited.

That sentence wasn't referring to a trained medical professional, or asserting that pushing buttons is all that a medical professional does.

Cool.

Re: The U.S. tried to build a new fleet of ventilators

#328

Post by DonHopkins »

mistermann wrote: post #277
omar_a1 wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They asked for evidence. I did as much, explaining a very, very basic concept in medicine, "sterile technique," and how even that can take years to get right. And was told, in response, that I'm just imagining reasons to object. Evidentally, keeping tools sterile in medicine is something I just conjured up! Perhaps you should take your own advice, rather than responding with personal vitriol directed at the users cou…

You immediately changed the subject from the one I posted. Why? And what vitriol are you referring to, which particular words that I wrote led you to form that conclusion?

Maybe it's because you always immediately change the subject from the one other people posted, so you have no right to whine when somebody does it to you.

I'm still waiting for you to reply to the questions I asked in the thread that you kept trying to change the subject away from. When I wouldn't let you do that, and kept bringing you back on topic, you ran away because you'd painted yourself into a corner with glaring contradictions in the things you said, and there was no way you could resolve the contradictions except by admitting you didn't really mean what you said.

Re: The U.S. tried to build a new fleet of ventilators

#329

Post by DonHopkins »

mistermann wrote: post #312
omar_a1 wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As in: No, I'm not about to read your lengthy line-by-line literary critique of your stunning assertions that I'm making up every single rebuttal and that I seem to have imagined this entire conversation. It's like poorly-executed gaslighting, as if you weren't aware that I can scroll up and see the post that I was replying to. I'm able to verify that, yes, it plainly states the thing that you have spent several bewi…

Once again, your description of the conversation is quite inconsistent with the words written on the page, but I think there's not much hope in making any progress. I'll share a piece of advice that a good friend of mine told me a few years ago: The mind is a wonderful servant, but a terrible master. I didn't really understand what he was talking about at the time, I thought it was just another one of those silly pla…

You don't mean anything you say, and nothing you say is consistent or makes any sense, so your arguments are insincere pointless distractions, and a waste of everyone's time, including your own. You're not fooling anyone. We're all onto you.

How much are you being paid for this?

You must not have a very good personal family life or even pets or a garden or video games, if you spend so much of your time writing this kind of meaningless sealioning bullshit that nobody reads or takes seriously, that it takes you away from those things that are so much more important in life.

I'd ask for a raise if I were you, but when they see how badly your trolling has been received and blacklisted, they're not going to want to pay you more, they're going to fire you.

Re: The U.S. tried to build a new fleet of ventilators

#330

Post by DonHopkins »

omar_a1 wrote: post #316
mistermann wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once again, your description of the conversation is quite inconsistent with the words written on the page, but I think there's not much hope in making any progress. I'll share a piece of advice that a good friend of mine told me a few years ago: The mind is a wonderful servant, but a terrible master. I didn't really understand what he was talking about at the time, I thought it was just another one of those silly pla…

No.

Good answer!
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