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On “Armchair Epidemiology”

scottaaronson.com

31–40 of 79 posts

Re: On “Armchair Epidemiology”

#31
This whole mess has been a repudiation of business-as-usual politics, but it has not been a repudiation of scientific experts.

Scientific experts across the world have been alarmed for months now. The only problem is that, as with any new and uncertainty situation, the error bars started absolutely enormous, so the range of expert opinion has been wide. This is the case in any crisis. With the benefit of hindsight, you can always find an expert who was wrong, but that doesn't mean anything.

It's important to say this because later, you're going to start to hear bloviating from politicians who failed to act for months. "Nobody knew this was coming." "Everything that went wrong was solely the fault of $enemy_country or $rival_party."

Re: On “Armchair Epidemiology”

#32
What has struck me most about Epidemiology, are the qualifications needed to be someone pursuing a career in it.

It seems like an Epidemiologist is most likely to be a doctor with some knowledge of statistics. On the contrary, I would have thought that a statistician/operations research person with domain knowledge of medicine would be a lot better suited to study epidemiology.

A lot of the existing models also seem really naïve for something an entire field depends on. Tradeoffs between human life lost due to the disease and effective human lives lost due to economic downturns seem entirely unstudied.

Czechia's actions of forcing people to using masks seems to have worked amazingly well for flattening out the curve. The "science" not seems to support it, and official recommendations are now moving back to recommending masks for all. The popular hypothesis for this, is that it stops nonsymptomatic carriers from being spreaders.

Now this sounds like a fairly obvious thing to realize, and to an extent, existing models should have caught this a lot earlier.

I grew up as a kid with an almost religious belief in Science. Over time, I have come to realize that a lot of our sciences are at best empirical and at worst entirely unverifiable. I am a 100% certain, that in a 100 years, we will look at medicine and nutrition of the 2000s, the way we look at humors and blood letting.

Re: On “Armchair Epidemiology”

#33
post #25
post #5

Who should we believe, then, the WHO? They told us China had it under control, and not to wear masks

The WHO has been urging everybody to get prepared for 10 weeks now, while constantly giving the same good advice (test, trace, lockdown, social distance). People are pretending this is all WHO's fault because they said some wrong stuff in early January, when the correct conclusions were not at all obvious . And they've been completely correct and transparent since late January. It's almost April now. At this point, i…

WHO are still (1) telling people that they don't need to wear protection on their faces unless they're having overt symptoms of the disease or caring for someone who is, and (2) downplaying aerosols as a possible factor in transmission, despite known superspreading events associated with e.g. people singing in a choir (where, last I checked, you don't have a lot of coughing or sneezing). This sort of stuff has real consequences.

Re: On “Armchair Epidemiology”

#34
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The WHO has been urging everybody to get prepared for 10 weeks now, while constantly giving the same good advice (test, trace, lockdown, social distance). People are pretending this is all WHO's fault because they said some wrong stuff in early January, when the correct conclusions were not at all obvious . And they've been completely correct and transparent since late January. It's almost April now. At this point, i…

They literally just posted this a few days ago https://twitter.com/WHOWPRO/status/1243171683067777024 when we know it's false and that masks do offer some level of personal protection on top of making everyone around you safer, given that you can infect others while asymptomatic.

Okay, yeah, the mask thing absolutely blows my mind. I have absolutely no idea what their motivation for saying this is, when just about every expert in every east Asian country disagrees.

Re: On “Armchair Epidemiology”

#35

> A viral article implores us to “flatten the curve of armchair epidemiology”—that is, to listen only to authoritive sources like the CDC, not random people spouting on social media. > This was notable to me for being the diametric opposite of the actual lesson of the past two months. So, because some (unspecified, unnamed) experts weren't able to predict the future with perfect accuracy, we should give equal credenc…

>So, because some (unspecified, unnamed) experts weren't able to predict the future with perfect accuracy, we should give equal credence to "random people" instead?

That wasn't my takeaway.

My takeaway is that if you have some intuitive sense that shit's about to hit the fan and authorities keep telling you to stay calm and don't take any special precautions, all while danger is clearly growing, it's best to lean towards following your intuitions gradually just in case things ramp up. You shouldn't buy 10000 rolls of toilet paper, but all those people who thought, "Hmmm, maybe I should buy some masks and a couple extra bottles of hand sanitizer. Maybe not visit the movie theater anytime soon as well" while authorities were saying "Go to work and be normal. Masks are useless"... well, they were right and it would've been better to take those then "unnecessary" precautions.

Reminds me of people talking about government surveillance pre and post Snowden. If you wanted to encrypt all your messages and avoid Facebook, etc, you were a conspiracy nut because it was impossible to surveil everything. Overnight it became "Of course they monitor everything. Why wouldn't they? But we have end-to-end encryption now and we can completely trust it."

Re: On “Armchair Epidemiology”

#36

> A viral article implores us to “flatten the curve of armchair epidemiology”—that is, to listen only to authoritive sources like the CDC, not random people spouting on social media. > This was notable to me for being the diametric opposite of the actual lesson of the past two months. So, because some (unspecified, unnamed) experts weren't able to predict the future with perfect accuracy, we should give equal credenc…

The official experts are often partially under the control of their governments and their politics. Eg, the doctors getting arrested in China for warning people. Sometimes, these agencies are just overconfident too, like how all our health agencies saying over and over that we have ample capacity and supplies - then New York happens.

The experts are definitely what we need, but not all experts are created equal. It’s like during wwi - it took a while to weed out the useless commanders/generals since the peacetime systems failed to promote based on ability

(Edit: Incidentally, I think we have some great people in Alberta at the moment. Very lucky for us)

Re: On “Armchair Epidemiology”

#37

> A viral article implores us to “flatten the curve of armchair epidemiology”—that is, to listen only to authoritive sources like the CDC, not random people spouting on social media. > This was notable to me for being the diametric opposite of the actual lesson of the past two months. So, because some (unspecified, unnamed) experts weren't able to predict the future with perfect accuracy, we should give equal credenc…

Exactly, cherry picking the most optimistic thing the most optimistic expert said two months ago is a tremendously unfair way of evaluating the field.

Re: On “Armchair Epidemiology”

#38
I sent a similar text to a medically vulnerable friend on Jan 25 saying I thought it was "scary, but not the scariest thing in the world right now", despite having spent some time working with an epidemiology research group. In hindsight, I knew enough to take the risk much more seriously.

This article: https://virologydownunder.com/past-time-to-tell-the-public-i..., plus the rising mortality numbers, spurred me to start warning the medically vulnerable people in my life on Feb 23. I am very grateful to the authors for helping me do the right thing.

At this point, it seems to me that our experts are still letting us down in two important ways:

1. They aren't rebutting this implicit notion that any mortality risk below 1% can be rounded down to zero. As a consequence, the idea that it might be a good idea to let younger, healthy people just go out and get the virus and get immune seems to still have currency, and this is really dangerous. We can't open things back up until we have a credible plan for driving the infection rate toward zero. Leaving aside the risk of life-changing injury, a mortality risk of eg 0.5% applied to eg half of young adults would still be by far the most dangerous thing that happens to most of them this year, and a huge personal tragedy for many of us. Do the math and work out how many people you know would die.

2. Simple, inexpensive measures like widespread masking, handwashing, gloves and eye protection will clearly be important components of any credible plan for driving the infection rate toward zero, unless we get an early vaccine. The experts should be hammering the point that we all need to be fastidious about those things whenever we open back up again.

Re: On “Armchair Epidemiology”

#39
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what are you talking about? that article is contemporary, they havent been proven wrong.

Art can be contemporary. Science not. We are currently looking at 200k deaths in the USA [1] from COVID-19, in the good scenario. How is it even compatible with their 0.01% mortality rates? Have we forgotten how to divide numbers? [1] https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/490138-birx-says... P.S. They even make the claim that COVID-19 has 1/10th the mortality of seasonal flu :facepalm:

"We are currently looking at 200k deaths in the USA"

That is a prediction. It is not yet a fact.

Right now we just don't have a good idea of how many people 1) how many people are currently infected, 2) how many people have already been infected and recovered without being tested, 3) how many people were already immune and would never have been infected, 4) how the way you are infected changes the outcome of the disease.

The mortality rate depends directly on those numbers. Until we know those numbers, we just don't know for sure. With H1N1 initial estimates of the fatality rate per infection were almost two orders of magnitude too high. A similar error may or may not be happening here.

The best we have right now is a tiny handful of limited, non-representative, "accidental experiments" like the Princess Diamond, that may or may not represent how the disease spreads in the community (note question #4). This will however soon change as more randomized testing is done, and in particular, anti-body testing to determine who already got the disease and recovered.

Re: On “Armchair Epidemiology”

#40
post #35

> A viral article implores us to “flatten the curve of armchair epidemiology”—that is, to listen only to authoritive sources like the CDC, not random people spouting on social media. > This was notable to me for being the diametric opposite of the actual lesson of the past two months. So, because some (unspecified, unnamed) experts weren't able to predict the future with perfect accuracy, we should give equal credenc…

>So, because some (unspecified, unnamed) experts weren't able to predict the future with perfect accuracy, we should give equal credence to "random people" instead? That wasn't my takeaway. My takeaway is that if you have some intuitive sense that shit's about to hit the fan and authorities keep telling you to stay calm and don't take any special precautions, all while danger is clearly growing, it's best to lean tow…

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