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Dutch museum says van Gogh painting stolen in overnight raid

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Re: Dutch museum says van Gogh painting stolen in overnight raid

#121

Post by jedimastert »

umvi wrote: post #53
ModernMech wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the draws of going to a museum is to see the originals. If you know it's a fake then it takes away from the mystique.

> If you know it's a fake then it takes away from the mystique. On the other hand, if you can only tell the difference between the real and the fake with a microscope, then "mystique" seems to be a simple placebo effect. It's about time we stopped holding original-yet-mediocre works like the Mona Lisa on such a high pedestal just to create some kind of "mental high" that people are deriving from the placebo effect.

What do you think art is? It's all in the head. Otherwise it's just paint on a canvas. It's not like there's some sort of objective truth to it.

Re: Dutch museum says van Gogh painting stolen in overnight raid

#122

Post by sacado2 »

hash872 wrote: post #13

What is the end goal for the thieves? Seeing as you obviously can't sell stolen artwork on the open market- how many insanely wealthy private collectors can there be out there, who are willing to risk substantial prison time to own a stolen painting? I think many or most people who have that much money probably made it legally and don't have that kind of risk tolerance. And I doubt many mob boss/Tony Soprano types re…

As a rich art collector, you can buy a real Van Gogh for a fraction of its price. Can you risk jail? Sure, but who will know you own it anyway? It's not like you're going to expose it in your living room anyway.

Not only that, but as soon as you know there can be at least one person in the world willing to buy that stolen piece of art, it becomes a great asset to own even if you're not the said art collector. Let's say I'm a bad guy and I want to give another bad guy 2 million dollars but I don't want to be seen with or have to travel with a suitcase full of banknotes or with my own weight in gold bars. Just carrying a lightweight, low-profile cardboard tube containing those 2 million bucks as a painting is very convenient.

And don't forget the end customer is not necessarily someone living in the same country. What if he's a rich prince living in a rich country, far far away? He would be mostly out of reach.

Re: Dutch museum says van Gogh painting stolen in overnight raid

#123

Post by nothrabannosir »

reaperducer wrote: post #104
joncalhoun wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think plausible deniability works on one-of-a-kind artwork. Even if you assume your dealer is legit, any cursory research will tell you it was stolen. It would be like buying the secret formula for Coca-Cola and claiming you didn't know it was stolen because it went through multiple middlemen.

These aren't paintings that are on display to the public after they're stolen. They're kept in houses and families for generations, and by then, time has laundered their provenance. If you read art news, it's not uncommon for museums to have paintings donated to them by the grandchildren of the person who bought the painting, only to learn half a century later that the painting was stolen. And if someone doesn't like…

> ... sometimes even think they shouldn't need passports to travel

well, I technically don't disagree with them there..

> ... and by then, time has laundered their provenance.

This is poetry. <3

Re: Dutch museum says van Gogh painting stolen in overnight raid

#124

Post by joncp »

dannykwells wrote: post #76

For anyone wanting to have a wonderful 90s flashback featuring the theft of high-end art, you can't do worse during shelter in place than to watch the Thomas Crown Affair: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0155267/

One of the rare remakes that was better than the original.

Re: Dutch museum says van Gogh painting stolen in overnight raid

#125

Post by peter303 »

hash872 wrote: post #13

What is the end goal for the thieves? Seeing as you obviously can't sell stolen artwork on the open market- how many insanely wealthy private collectors can there be out there, who are willing to risk substantial prison time to own a stolen painting? I think many or most people who have that much money probably made it legally and don't have that kind of risk tolerance. And I doubt many mob boss/Tony Soprano types re…

Eventually new technology exposes a counterfeit. There was a recent NOVA about fake dead sea scrolls and the competition between counterfeiters to create better fakes and forensic experts to weed them out. At the time the episode was filmed about a third of the scroll fragments owned by the Museum of the Bible were proven fakes. Now the rest of them have been proven false.

Re: Dutch museum says van Gogh painting stolen in overnight raid

#126

Post by tech-no-logical »

btrettel wrote: post #107

COVID-19 is providing many opportunities for criminals. It's only a matter of time before articles come out with titles like "How identity thieves took my federal tax return AND coronabucks" given the delay in filing US tax returns this year.

according to both the police and the museum, the security was as per usual. yes, the museum is closed now, but the burglary was at night.

Re: Dutch museum says van Gogh painting stolen in overnight raid

#127

Post by iandanforth »

I fully approve of art theft. There should be honor among thieves of course. You shouldn't damage art. But if a painting isn't stolen now and then, well it wasn't worth painting in the first place. Really, what is art for but to enliven the doldrums of the rich?

A moment or three of aesthetic pleasure, bragging at parties, but really most days it's just so much wallpaper. No, the true purpose of art is to be stolen. Then the chase begins, the drama, the mystery, the appreciation of the craft of skullduggery.

Eventually you track down the blighter who nabbed the splotchy-whatsit, buy him a beer and throw him back in the clink. That's where he'll meet his next crew, plan the next heist, and start the whole glorious affair over again.

So cheers to the cheeky beggars who grabbed the Gogh, let the fun begin!

Re: Dutch museum says van Gogh painting stolen in overnight raid

#128

Post by eyegor »

hash872 wrote: post #13

What is the end goal for the thieves? Seeing as you obviously can't sell stolen artwork on the open market- how many insanely wealthy private collectors can there be out there, who are willing to risk substantial prison time to own a stolen painting? I think many or most people who have that much money probably made it legally and don't have that kind of risk tolerance. And I doubt many mob boss/Tony Soprano types re…

Here's an interesting idea, although it may be far fetched. Given the original, if a thief could produce a high quality counterfeit in van gough's style, they could possibly use parchment/ink from the true original in creating it. Then they'd have a "lost van gough" which could pass some basic age analysis. This lost painting would be worth more than the original, and they could sell it on the real art market, not a black market.

Or this may just a crappy movie plot. I don't know much about art.

Re: Dutch museum says van Gogh painting stolen in overnight raid

#129

Post by frereubu »

hash872 wrote: post #13

What is the end goal for the thieves? Seeing as you obviously can't sell stolen artwork on the open market- how many insanely wealthy private collectors can there be out there, who are willing to risk substantial prison time to own a stolen painting? I think many or most people who have that much money probably made it legally and don't have that kind of risk tolerance. And I doubt many mob boss/Tony Soprano types re…

This is a great read from the New Yorker about a serial art thief, which gives a bit of insight into the psychology of it all: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/01/14/the-french-bur...

Re: Dutch museum says van Gogh painting stolen in overnight raid

#130

Post by btrettel »

tech-no-logical wrote: post #126
btrettel wrote: post #107

COVID-19 is providing many opportunities for criminals. It's only a matter of time before articles come out with titles like "How identity thieves took my federal tax return AND coronabucks" given the delay in filing US tax returns this year.

according to both the police and the museum, the security was as per usual. yes, the museum is closed now, but the burglary was at night.

Interesting. I had assumed that security was reduced.
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