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Writing an OS in Rust: Async/Await

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Re: Writing an OS in Rust: Async/Await

#41
post #18

I've shied away from async/await because I haven't seen a good writeup on how to make it deterministic. Come to think of it, all of the times I've encountered it, there was no way to analyze the codepaths and prove that every exceptional situation and failure mode was handled. Maybe I missed something along the way? So my feeling about it is that it may turn out to be an evolutionary dead end, or anti-pattern at the…

What do you mean by functionally equivalent? Channels are just queues and passing methods. Rust style futures are closer to continuations. Both are powerful and can accomplish neat taska, but not ABI compatible or even used the same way.

> Channels are just queues and passing methods.

My understanding is channels in `go` are 0 sized by default- and thus turn into "rendezvous channels" that can be used to synchronize progress between threads.

This article compares Go and Rust threads and includes an example of how go uses channel's to synchronize. [0]

[0] - https://medium.com/@deckarep/paradigms-of-rust-for-the-go-de...

Re: Writing an OS in Rust: Async/Await

#42
post #15

Is async/await a good idea for an OS kernel, even a toy one? Cooperative multitasking tends to break down at scale, because the probability that all the "threads" you're cooperating with are playing nice goes to zero as the number of threads increases. An OS will tend to have a concentrated number of the pathological cases in it as it deals with hardware and all the other hardest timing & concurrency problems. It's a…

There's a few different pieces to your question.

Async/await is a programming paradigm that moves the state management of an asynchronous program into the compiler rather than being explicitly managed by the user. The paradigm is almost universally a win: if you don't want to write asynchronous code, just don't use it; it doesn't impact your code at all.

A second question is how the language actually drives the execution of asynchronous tasks. Most of the languages that have added async/await have incorporated it into their execution model, so you are forced to use the particular semantics of the language. There are subtle, but very important, differences here: for example, when you actually provide the answer that resolves the await, do you execute the waiting code immediately, or schedule it for a future iteration? This is what can cause the most problems with async/await, but Rust does not define any executors [1], so it's not an issue here.

The final question is if asynchronous code at all makes sense for an OS kernel. I'd argue that the answer is very much yes: communication with devices are almost invariably asynchronous (you set some memory lines to tell the device to do something, and get an interrupt telling you it's arrived). Particularly for the filesystem, where there are both synchronous and asynchronous system calls for the same code, a good executor for asynchronous code could well be beneficial for simplifying code paths. (Note that filesystems also generally have some degree of task dependency requirements--you need to ensure that the various requests happen in a particular partial order).

Now do note that this requires a far more complex executor model than most async/await toolkits (including this tutorial) provide.

[1] Logically, it would make sense to provide a utility function that synchronously runs an async function, but this isn't implemented yet.

Re: Writing an OS in Rust: Async/Await

#43

I've shied away from async/await because I haven't seen a good writeup on how to make it deterministic. Come to think of it, all of the times I've encountered it, there was no way to analyze the codepaths and prove that every exceptional situation and failure mode was handled. Maybe I missed something along the way? So my feeling about it is that it may turn out to be an evolutionary dead end, or anti-pattern at the…

I am no expert and I wish there were a start from 0 guide with examples not involving external crates but my sense is that you can write your own executor and do whatever you want. (Maybe I'm wrong?)

You're not wrong: that is basically what this article is, and it includes writing an executor!

Re: Writing an OS in Rust: Async/Await

#44
post #15

Is async/await a good idea for an OS kernel, even a toy one? Cooperative multitasking tends to break down at scale, because the probability that all the "threads" you're cooperating with are playing nice goes to zero as the number of threads increases. An OS will tend to have a concentrated number of the pathological cases in it as it deals with hardware and all the other hardest timing & concurrency problems. It's a…

There's a few different pieces to your question. Async/await is a programming paradigm that moves the state management of an asynchronous program into the compiler rather than being explicitly managed by the user. The paradigm is almost universally a win: if you don't want to write asynchronous code, just don't use it; it doesn't impact your code at all. A second question is how the language actually drives the execu…

"Now do note that this requires a far more complex executor model than most async/await toolkits (including this tutorial) provide."

I'm assuming the async/await language support in Rust is intrinsically tied to a cooperative approach, which is the part I'm questioning. Obviously a kernel needs to be able to generically work in an asynchronous fashion... the question is, is this asynchronous fashion appropriate?

If the Rust async/await support is indeed so flexible that with some work you could tie it together with a pre-emptive runtime of your own custom creation (as would make sense for an OS kernel), or some intermediate support that may not be "pre-emptive" but would be fully immune by-construction to the sort of issues I'm worried about, then, yes, by all means use it.

But a fundamentally cooperative kernel would really worry me. You'd be looking at freezing the whole kernel, and likely the whole machine, if anything, anywhere, goes wrong with the cooperation. It won't take a lot of scale before that's a problem.

And that's the worst case. Kernels strike me as very likely to also have to deal with the starvation situations that cooperative multitasking can have, where one "task" never gives up control. Even if this doesn't freeze the machine, this can cause significant, human-visible latency issues to emerge.

Re: Writing an OS in Rust: Async/Await

#45
post #29
post #15

Is async/await a good idea for an OS kernel, even a toy one? Cooperative multitasking tends to break down at scale, because the probability that all the "threads" you're cooperating with are playing nice goes to zero as the number of threads increases. An OS will tend to have a concentrated number of the pathological cases in it as it deals with hardware and all the other hardest timing & concurrency problems. It's a…

An OS has many aspects to it. Scheduling tasks is only one of the aspects. Async/await is just the interface/mechanism in dealing with the tasks, in this case cooperative tasks. Interacting with hardware, dealing with interrupts, memory mapping/managing, task isolation, etc are all other aspects of an OS that are apart from task scheduling but still needed. Cooperative multitasking works fine as long as the users/dev…

"Cooperative multitasking works fine as long as the users/developers understand the limitation."

The problem is, we basically already know that is not the case. We've got years of experience with what "cooperatively multitasked" OS looks like, and it was not a "works fine" situation. You can't understand the limitations at scale as they interact with each other far, far beyond the human mind's capacity to understand.

Re: Writing an OS in Rust: Async/Await

#46
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a few different pieces to your question. Async/await is a programming paradigm that moves the state management of an asynchronous program into the compiler rather than being explicitly managed by the user. The paradigm is almost universally a win: if you don't want to write asynchronous code, just don't use it; it doesn't impact your code at all. A second question is how the language actually drives the execu…

"Now do note that this requires a far more complex executor model than most async/await toolkits (including this tutorial) provide." I'm assuming the async/await language support in Rust is intrinsically tied to a cooperative approach, which is the part I'm questioning. Obviously a kernel needs to be able to generically work in an asynchronous fashion... the question is, is this asynchronous fashion appropriate? If t…

> If the Rust async/await support is indeed so flexible that with some work you could tie it together with a pre-emptive runtime of your own custom creation

I think that's exactly what it is. AIUI it's basically an API for async/await (and maybe a default runtime?) that different back-ends can be plugged into. At least that's what I've come away with over the months of reading random bits about it here.

Re: Writing an OS in Rust: Async/Await

#47
post #6

Is it possible to context switch between userspace processes directly, without going through the kernel, i.e. a kind of fast, inter-process cooperative multitasking? I know earlier operating systems used inter-process cooperative multitasking, but I'm guessing they still went through the scheduler? I was trying to figure out if QNX does this with `MsgSend`, as QNX is renowned for being a fast microkernel, but it wasn…

MsgSend() in QNX Neutrino does not circumvent the kernel, just the scheduler. If you're clever and lucky you can get an entire round trip to and from the service in a single timeslice. On the other hand, MsgSend() always blocks, so the call could be preempted depending on service priority or if there is an I/O wait or whatever, and that would mean the scheduler comes to play.

Re: Writing an OS in Rust: Async/Await

#48

I've shied away from async/await because I haven't seen a good writeup on how to make it deterministic. Come to think of it, all of the times I've encountered it, there was no way to analyze the codepaths and prove that every exceptional situation and failure mode was handled. Maybe I missed something along the way? So my feeling about it is that it may turn out to be an evolutionary dead end, or anti-pattern at the…

There are two important things that are often conflated with async/await: the programming model, and the executor model.

The programming model of async/await is essentially syntactic sugar for a state machine, where each of the states are determined implicitly by the site of the call to await, and the ancillary storage of the state machine is managed implicitly by the compiler. It's basically no different from a generator pattern (and is usually implemented on top of the same infrastructure) [1].

Since the result of calling an async function is a task object that doesn't do anything until you call methods on it (including implicitly via await), most languages integrate these task objects with their event model. This model is completely orthogonal to the feature, and often exists (at least in the library, if not the language) before async/await is added to the language. JS has a built-in event loop that predates async/await by several years, whether programming in client-side browsers or using something like Node.js. Rust is unusual in that it prescribes absolutely nothing for the executor model; all it defines in its standard library is the interface to drive the tasks manually.

I doubt async/await is an evolutionary dead end. It's the third kind of coroutine to hit it big in mainstream languages, the first two being the zero-cost exception handling mechanism (i.e., try/catch) and the generator (i.e. yield). The biggest criticism of zero-cost exceptions essentially amounts to their types not being made explicit, but the design of async/await makes their effects on the type of coroutine quite apparent, so it's not going to run into the same problems.

[1] There is a difference in the pattern, which is that you're probably going to get back different kinds of objects implementing different interfaces, which is a bigger deal if you manually drive the interfaces. Structurally--that is, in terms of the actual machine code running--there is likely to be no difference.

Re: Writing an OS in Rust: Async/Await

#49
post #46
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Now do note that this requires a far more complex executor model than most async/await toolkits (including this tutorial) provide." I'm assuming the async/await language support in Rust is intrinsically tied to a cooperative approach, which is the part I'm questioning. Obviously a kernel needs to be able to generically work in an asynchronous fashion... the question is, is this asynchronous fashion appropriate? If t…

> If the Rust async/await support is indeed so flexible that with some work you could tie it together with a pre-emptive runtime of your own custom creation I think that's exactly what it is. AIUI it's basically an API for async/await (and maybe a default runtime?) that different back-ends can be plugged into. At least that's what I've come away with over the months of reading random bits about it here.

As described in the blog post, the rust compiler generates a state machine for every async function and generates the appropriate poll methods for the state transition. This is fundamentally at odds with the preemption, which would then have to indroduce new intermediate states into the diagram which it won't be able to do at runtime.

Re: Writing an OS in Rust: Async/Await

#50
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a few different pieces to your question. Async/await is a programming paradigm that moves the state management of an asynchronous program into the compiler rather than being explicitly managed by the user. The paradigm is almost universally a win: if you don't want to write asynchronous code, just don't use it; it doesn't impact your code at all. A second question is how the language actually drives the execu…

"Now do note that this requires a far more complex executor model than most async/await toolkits (including this tutorial) provide." I'm assuming the async/await language support in Rust is intrinsically tied to a cooperative approach, which is the part I'm questioning. Obviously a kernel needs to be able to generically work in an asynchronous fashion... the question is, is this asynchronous fashion appropriate? If t…

The Rust async/await amounts to the following:

* Magic keywords (i.e., async and await) to manage the state machine aspect of the function for you.

* A standard interface for describing an asynchronous task (core::future::Future). The magic keywords create an implementation of this interface.

* An interface for saying that task progress can be made (core::task::Waker).

That's it. There is no runtime provided, not even optionally, in the standard library (let alone core). A fair amount of this post is giving instructions for how to build the runtime to execute asynchronous tasks.

One important thing to note is that Rust uses a polling-based approach to implement tasks. That is, the core interface to a task is to run it and have it return the result or indicate that is waiting on something else. In the case of the latter, there is a callback mechanism (the Waker object) that the task is responsible for calling when it has more information to make progress--and the caller is responsible for calling the task again when that happens. Many (most?) other implementations instead use a resolution model, where the caller provides a function that is called with the result, and when the function gets called (particularly in the case of tasks that can execute quickly) differs from implementation to implementation. Rust's model definitely maps much more easily to a kernel, since the dominant pattern will be to drain a buffer, poke a device, and then wait for an interrupt to happen (the interrupt handler calling the wake function).

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