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Dutch museum says van Gogh painting stolen in overnight raid

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Re: Dutch museum says van Gogh painting stolen in overnight raid

#61

Post by wpietri »

LeonM wrote: post #11

The value (in terms of money) of art has always been confusing to me. Art has monetary value because: 1 it is a famous, one-of-a-kind piece 2 it can be used for money laundering and/or illegal transactions Pieces in museums are always in the #1 category. Any other piece with high monetary value is clearly in the #2 category. This stolen van Gogh will probably end up in a private collection, but really, what's the poi…

People just like owning things. Even if you didn't steal something like a street sign when in high school or college, surely you know somebody who did. They have no monetary value, just having one is proof of crime, and you could can go look at a stop sign any time you want. But there's still a thrill to having it up on your wall, and it can increase your status with your peer group.

Re: Dutch museum says van Gogh painting stolen in overnight raid

#62

Post by NullPrefix »

umvi wrote: post #53
ModernMech wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the draws of going to a museum is to see the originals. If you know it's a fake then it takes away from the mystique.

> If you know it's a fake then it takes away from the mystique. On the other hand, if you can only tell the difference between the real and the fake with a microscope, then "mystique" seems to be a simple placebo effect. It's about time we stopped holding original-yet-mediocre works like the Mona Lisa on such a high pedestal just to create some kind of "mental high" that people are deriving from the placebo effect.

You think that mentality is the reason for all the fake products on Amazon? Don't go blaming be if the customer can't tell the difference.

Re: Dutch museum says van Gogh painting stolen in overnight raid

#63

Post by bosswipe »

LeonM wrote: post #11

The value (in terms of money) of art has always been confusing to me. Art has monetary value because: 1 it is a famous, one-of-a-kind piece 2 it can be used for money laundering and/or illegal transactions Pieces in museums are always in the #1 category. Any other piece with high monetary value is clearly in the #2 category. This stolen van Gogh will probably end up in a private collection, but really, what's the poi…

3. Art is an investment and can be seen as a way of diversifying.

Re: Dutch museum says van Gogh painting stolen in overnight raid

#64

Post by ModernMech »

umvi wrote: post #53
ModernMech wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the draws of going to a museum is to see the originals. If you know it's a fake then it takes away from the mystique.

> If you know it's a fake then it takes away from the mystique. On the other hand, if you can only tell the difference between the real and the fake with a microscope, then "mystique" seems to be a simple placebo effect. It's about time we stopped holding original-yet-mediocre works like the Mona Lisa on such a high pedestal just to create some kind of "mental high" that people are deriving from the placebo effect.

It may be a placebo effect, but I need the lie in order for it to work. I can't get the same thing by pretending it's real. My brain has to believe it's real.

Re: Dutch museum says van Gogh painting stolen in overnight raid

#65

Post by joncalhoun »

crazygringo wrote: post #43
hash872 wrote: post #13

What is the end goal for the thieves? Seeing as you obviously can't sell stolen artwork on the open market- how many insanely wealthy private collectors can there be out there, who are willing to risk substantial prison time to own a stolen painting? I think many or most people who have that much money probably made it legally and don't have that kind of risk tolerance. And I doubt many mob boss/Tony Soprano types re…

From what I've read it's stolen to order. Super rich person really wants that particular painting to hang in a private room where they can enjoy it. And they go through a couple connections for plausible deniability -- buying it from some kind of "dealer" they can "assume" is "legit", and the "dealer" then connects with actual criminals to steal it. If ever caught (unlikely), the thieves and "dealer" take the fall, n…

I don't think plausible deniability works on one-of-a-kind artwork. Even if you assume your dealer is legit, any cursory research will tell you it was stolen. It would be like buying the secret formula for Coca-Cola and claiming you didn't know it was stolen because it went through multiple middlemen.

Re: Dutch museum says van Gogh painting stolen in overnight raid

#66

Post by paulie_a »

hannob wrote: post #55
mulmen wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apparently they can be used as collateral between criminals for loans. They can also be used as an insurance policy if the criminal is ever caught. Offer to exchange the art for a lesser sentence. A literal get out of jail free card.

> Offer to exchange the art for a lesser sentence. A literal get out of jail free card. Has that ever happened? I'd assume this would be super controversial.

A guy out of Boston did that...for paintings he actually stole.

I think the book was the art of the heist

Re: Dutch museum says van Gogh painting stolen in overnight raid

#67

Post by OrangeMango »

joncalhoun wrote: post #65
crazygringo wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I've read it's stolen to order. Super rich person really wants that particular painting to hang in a private room where they can enjoy it. And they go through a couple connections for plausible deniability -- buying it from some kind of "dealer" they can "assume" is "legit", and the "dealer" then connects with actual criminals to steal it. If ever caught (unlikely), the thieves and "dealer" take the fall, n…

I don't think plausible deniability works on one-of-a-kind artwork. Even if you assume your dealer is legit, any cursory research will tell you it was stolen. It would be like buying the secret formula for Coca-Cola and claiming you didn't know it was stolen because it went through multiple middlemen.

You can always claim to have purchased a "professional-quality" reproduction from a "reputable" dealer.

Re: Dutch museum says van Gogh painting stolen in overnight raid

#68

Post by onetimemanytime »

LeonM wrote: post #11

The value (in terms of money) of art has always been confusing to me. Art has monetary value because: 1 it is a famous, one-of-a-kind piece 2 it can be used for money laundering and/or illegal transactions Pieces in museums are always in the #1 category. Any other piece with high monetary value is clearly in the #2 category. This stolen van Gogh will probably end up in a private collection, but really, what's the poi…

Rich person is 60 years old. He has so much money that he'll never spend it in his lifetime. So screw investment, he'll just hang it in his office and enjoy it for 24 years.

Re: Dutch museum says van Gogh painting stolen in overnight raid

#70

Post by tropdrop »

LeonM wrote: post #11

The value (in terms of money) of art has always been confusing to me. Art has monetary value because: 1 it is a famous, one-of-a-kind piece 2 it can be used for money laundering and/or illegal transactions Pieces in museums are always in the #1 category. Any other piece with high monetary value is clearly in the #2 category. This stolen van Gogh will probably end up in a private collection, but really, what's the poi…

If we were discussing the theft of several million dollars from a bank, then only considering the monetary value of the theft makes sense. Here, though, it's an incomplete picture to only consider monetary value as the reason for the theft.

What about social capital?

Picture this - the leader of a particular organized crime ring wants to cinch the impression of complete control to his associates. What better way to do that than hang a painting like this on a wall in the dining room of his estate? It demonstrates not only that he has a literal van Gogh in his house, but also shows that when he wants something, he can just take it - painting on sale or no, he'll have it in his house.

The fact that this painting was stolen on van Gogh's birthday feeds my imagination that something like this really happened.

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