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Dutch museum says van Gogh painting stolen in overnight raid

news.artnet.com

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Re: Dutch museum says van Gogh painting stolen in overnight raid

#11

Post by LeonM »

The value (in terms of money) of art has always been confusing to me.

Art has monetary value because:

1 it is a famous, one-of-a-kind piece

2 it can be used for money laundering and/or illegal transactions

Pieces in museums are always in the #1 category. Any other piece with high monetary value is clearly in the #2 category.

This stolen van Gogh will probably end up in a private collection, but really, what's the point? Since it is now a known stolen piece it now has no value in both category #1 and #2.

I have a hard time believing that the new 'owner' had it stolen for the artistic value. Really, if he/she wanted to look at it, he/she could have just gone to the museum. (Well, not right now due to COVID19, but you get the point).

Re: Dutch museum says van Gogh painting stolen in overnight raid

#12

Post by moioci »

nodesocket wrote: post #7
maallooc wrote: post #2

What's with European museums and robbers? I've rarely or never heard Asian or American museums get robbed.

You'd think paintings worth large amounts of money they would add GPS trackers and motion detectors into the frame.

Usually the frames are left behind.

https://www.npr.org/2015/03/18/393565096/25-years-after-art-...

Re: Dutch museum says van Gogh painting stolen in overnight raid

#13

Post by hash872 »

What is the end goal for the thieves? Seeing as you obviously can't sell stolen artwork on the open market- how many insanely wealthy private collectors can there be out there, who are willing to risk substantial prison time to own a stolen painting? I think many or most people who have that much money probably made it legally and don't have that kind of risk tolerance. And I doubt many mob boss/Tony Soprano types really have an appreciation for fine art.... So what's the market like?

(And if there is a market for shady wealthy stolen art buyers, how do you get connected with them? Seems like every node in a web of underground connections is someone the police can potentially arrest & flip, etc.)

Re: Dutch museum says van Gogh painting stolen in overnight raid

#14

Post by w-m »

nickthegreek wrote: post #3

Photo of the artwork is missing from apnews. You can find one here - https://news.artnet.com/art-world/thieves-stolen-van-gogh-ma...

The muted greenish brown colouring, the strange wide aspect ratio, the generally dark tone and setting: if you'd try to sell this to me as a Van Gogh painting, I would have probably laughed at you. I'm far from being an art historian, but it looks quite out of character for a Van Gogh.

Re: Dutch museum says van Gogh painting stolen in overnight raid

#15

Post by defertoreptar »

LeonM wrote: post #11

The value (in terms of money) of art has always been confusing to me. Art has monetary value because: 1 it is a famous, one-of-a-kind piece 2 it can be used for money laundering and/or illegal transactions Pieces in museums are always in the #1 category. Any other piece with high monetary value is clearly in the #2 category. This stolen van Gogh will probably end up in a private collection, but really, what's the poi…

I can't find the source, but I remember reading about how there's a lifecycle to stolen art. The thief sells it to a sketchy art dealer at a huge discount. The sketchy art dealer then sells it to a more legitimate dealer at less of a discount. Then, it either goes to a legitimate private collector or museum. The length of time between each step can span decades, but it becomes more valuable at each transition.

Re: Dutch museum says van Gogh painting stolen in overnight raid

#16

Post by gorgoiler »

hash872 wrote: post #13

What is the end goal for the thieves? Seeing as you obviously can't sell stolen artwork on the open market- how many insanely wealthy private collectors can there be out there, who are willing to risk substantial prison time to own a stolen painting? I think many or most people who have that much money probably made it legally and don't have that kind of risk tolerance. And I doubt many mob boss/Tony Soprano types re…

Perhaps it was stolen to order? Essentially the market would be ready-made for the thieves.

Re: Dutch museum says van Gogh painting stolen in overnight raid

#17

Post by bpodgursky »

hash872 wrote: post #13

What is the end goal for the thieves? Seeing as you obviously can't sell stolen artwork on the open market- how many insanely wealthy private collectors can there be out there, who are willing to risk substantial prison time to own a stolen painting? I think many or most people who have that much money probably made it legally and don't have that kind of risk tolerance. And I doubt many mob boss/Tony Soprano types re…

If you can get the goods to the Middle East (Qatar, UAE, Bahrain) I assure you there are filthy rich princes and sheikhs who (1) want to give the impression of a respect for fine art, and (2) are at absolutely no risk of prosecution, and (3) would drop the money just for fun / social posturing, not even as an investment.

Re: Dutch museum says van Gogh painting stolen in overnight raid

#18

Post by seemslegit »

LeonM wrote: post #11

The value (in terms of money) of art has always been confusing to me. Art has monetary value because: 1 it is a famous, one-of-a-kind piece 2 it can be used for money laundering and/or illegal transactions Pieces in museums are always in the #1 category. Any other piece with high monetary value is clearly in the #2 category. This stolen van Gogh will probably end up in a private collection, but really, what's the poi…

Apparently high-priced items can be negotiated to be returned for ransom, this works by having the museum advertise a bounty for information and is being legitimized by a lawyer representing someone who received a tip about the whereabouts of the piece (some warehouse etc.)

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2005/dec/21/arts.artsnews

Re: Dutch museum says van Gogh painting stolen in overnight raid

#19

Post by wmkn »

defertoreptar wrote: post #15
LeonM wrote: post #11

The value (in terms of money) of art has always been confusing to me. Art has monetary value because: 1 it is a famous, one-of-a-kind piece 2 it can be used for money laundering and/or illegal transactions Pieces in museums are always in the #1 category. Any other piece with high monetary value is clearly in the #2 category. This stolen van Gogh will probably end up in a private collection, but really, what's the poi…

I can't find the source, but I remember reading about how there's a lifecycle to stolen art. The thief sells it to a sketchy art dealer at a huge discount. The sketchy art dealer then sells it to a more legitimate dealer at less of a discount. Then, it either goes to a legitimate private collector or museum. The length of time between each step can span decades, but it becomes more valuable at each transition.

For a van Gogh that would never work. No legitimate art dealer would touch it. Regardless of the amount of time in between.

Re: Dutch museum says van Gogh painting stolen in overnight raid

#20

Post by quesera »

moioci wrote: post #12
nodesocket wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'd think paintings worth large amounts of money they would add GPS trackers and motion detectors into the frame.

Usually the frames are left behind. https://www.npr.org/2015/03/18/393565096/25-years-after-art-...

Often, the canvases are cut from the frames with boxcutters.

I understand that an art heist is a high pressure event with little spare time for niceties, but this willful damage might be the thing I find most offensive.

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