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French companies benefiting from state aid can't buy back shares

uk.reuters.com

131–140 of 220 posts

Re: French companies benefiting from state aid can't buy back shares

#131
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're not just quoting Le Marie, you're arguing that Reuters is wrong.

Yes I am. State aid is not only guaranteed bonds. Partial unemployement is, too.

It cannot be clearer : "Ils devront être suspendus quand les sociétés bénéficient des reports d’échéances fiscales et sociales". The three words "devront être suspendus" explicitly indicates it will be illegal. And the terms "les sociétés bénéficiant des reports d’échéances fiscales et sociales" say that any company benefiting at least from the most basic state-funded help package (related to COVID) is targeted.

Re: French companies benefiting from state aid can't buy back shares

#132
post #6

Some opinions on stock buybacks worth reading: https://hbr.org/2020/01/why-stock-buybacks-are-dangerous-for... https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/23/opinion/ban-stock-buyback...

Skip the NYT article, it is fluff and doesn’t take paying out dividends into account. The HBR article is better (but still only a cursory introduction).

Re: French companies benefiting from state aid can't buy back shares

#133
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why aren't we letting them fail instead of allowing these idiots to stay in business? Say American Airlines went bust. It's debtors would get its planes and other company assets, who would then in turn sell them to other airlines. A new airline might form to take its place, which would probably be a little more prudent than the last one.

In some indistries, that means thousands of people without work, and hundreds of other companies in the supply chain going bankrupt, and even more people without work. Sometimes it's cheaper to bail out the main company, then to deal with the unemployed, many more bankrupt companies etc. But some regulation should be put in place... if a CEO fscked up the company so much, it needed government bailout, they don't dese…

> In some indistries, that means thousands of people without work, and hundreds of other companies in the supply chain going bankrupt, and even more people without work.

A popular counter-argument is that governments should plan to spend money on unemployment relief for individuals if it looks like a lot of big companies won’t make it. Let companies fail but cushion the blow for people affected.

Re: French companies benefiting from state aid can't buy back shares

#134
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Buybacks are just tax efficient dividends, and all of the hate against them is from people who don't realize this and haven't thought through the math Or from people who do exactly realize this and have though through the math. I mean, its not like there is no reason why dividends tend to be taxed ...

So are LTGCs from the shareholders who sold. Someone is paying the capital gains tax; it’s just not the people who stayed invested.

well, that's not how it should work or is intended. if my monthly paycheck is 13k eur before taxes and i live of 5k easily, i cannot say, take only 5k and pay taxes on that and for the other 8k give me stocks untaxed, and i will probably pay some tax when i sell the stocks (and different rules applay).

Re: French companies benefiting from state aid can't buy back shares

#135

Prediction: that won't be a precondition in the USA, and if it was, most companies would decline the aid. You see, buybacks are "that one weird trick" where you can steal from the market, by inflating the EPS and hence your employee stock options, and not go to jail.

There is nothing weird or tricky about buybacks, and the mechanism is pretty obvious and intuitive.

A company can issue new shares and raise money when they need it.

A company can buyback shares when they have extra money they can't efficiently use (see: AAPL, MSFT, GOOG).

There is absolutely nothing nefarious about this mechanism, and if tax treatments vary blame the government (don't hate the playa, etc).

Buybacks are only a problem when cash-poor companies do buybacks. Either they're depleting a small contingency reserve, or they're even utilizing debt to do it.

Re: French companies benefiting from state aid can't buy back shares

#136
post #49

.. or dividends as the article says. Devil is in the details. Maybe French government has good conditions for the aid, but the article is not giving details. Aid should be exchangeable debt for public companies. No dividends and buybacks. No executive bonuses or options until the debt is paid full. After (5-7) years the remaining debt is exchanged into company stocks in a rate that leaves the government in the neutra…

Monstly agree - but dividends that go to every owner aren't unfair per se, a cap on dividends would be very good, though. As for options, depending on the company they can be a hiring incentive, and not being able to grant any may restrict the company going forward - has to be evaluated carefully.

Re: French companies benefiting from state aid can't buy back shares

#137
post #6

Some opinions on stock buybacks worth reading: https://hbr.org/2020/01/why-stock-buybacks-are-dangerous-for... https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/23/opinion/ban-stock-buyback...

Great food for thought, thanks for this.

These two paragraphs have all the key concepts IMHO (there's even redundance). You understand this, you have a comprehensive 10,000ft view.

> “Stock buybacks made as open-market repurchases make no contribution to the productive capabilities of the firm. Indeed, these distributions to shareholders, which generally come on top of dividends, disrupt the growth dynamic that links the productivity and pay of the labor force. The results are increased income inequity, employment instability, and anemic productivity.”

> “Stock buybacks made as open-market repurchases make no contribution to the productive capabilities of the firm. Indeed, these distributions to shareholders, which generally come on top of dividends, disrupt the growth dynamic that links the productivity and pay of the labor force. The results are increased income inequity, employment instability, and anemic productivity. [...] because of corporate tax cuts, in 2018 taxpaying households were burdened with about 38% of the combined government and business debt that enabled corporations to do buybacks.”

I'm a fierce capitalist, I love human sweat and I admire those who create value. Whether Jane the CEO or Rob who makes delicious cookies, value is value, value is good, value is shared (or should be).

Stock buyback is stealing though, plain and simple. It's a legally, cleverly twisted, inverted Robin Hood mechanism at the private level. It's basically everything that's wrong with finance in abstraction of value.

Expect tighter regulation promoted by Central Banks in the 2020s or we're heading for another income inequity-snafu. For those who haven't read much economy, the gist is this: not enough income inequity, and society stagnates (underperforms relatively to others under comparable conditions). Too much inequity, and the system chokes on itself (not enough consumer liquidity ⇒ you know...— and if you don't, think: consumer liquidity is the difference between pre-WWII and post-WWII global economies.

I'm not an economist and absolutely not an expert (I only did 2 short years of econ in university, and self-taught some financial-survival skills). But this is like 101 to me, the basics of a macro-econ intro. It's not even controversial, or hasn't been since post-Keynes basically.

Re: French companies benefiting from state aid can't buy back shares

#138
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Or do you think non capitalist systems don't have laws and a group of dictators must be at the top? Empirically, for 100% of the sample size, socialist systems always turned into dictatorships after a few years at most.

Empirically, there are plenty of democratic socialist countries

> Empirically, there are plenty of democratic socialist countries

Capitalism + regulation + social safety net != socialism.

Re: French companies benefiting from state aid can't buy back shares

#139
post #68
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, assuming anyone will buy the stocks, and at the price you want them to...

Well, they can keep issuing stock until their share price hits $0.00. If they still need money, then maybe the state can step in and start buying some.

If traders credibly believed that a stock's value was going to 0, then the price would already be 0. Just saying in advance that your scheme was about to be implemented would crater the price before any new stock was sold.

Re: French companies benefiting from state aid can't buy back shares

#140

If the government keeps bailing out large corporations, can this eventually form a pattern in which major corporations and industries may collectively and artificially engineer a crash or downturn event to game the system? Once any pattern is formed and determined, there are always some people who will attempt to exploit it, and those people are often the ones who would eventually ruin all the good things for everybo…

The term you are looking for is "moral hazard".

They won't deliberately cause crashes, because those are not profitable, but they will deliberately make risky bets that benefit them if things go well, and get bailed out if they fail (riskier bets have more upside for the kleptocrats looking out for Number One).

Given the odds, crashes are nearly inevitable. This is undistinguishable from deliberate crashes.

The policies enacted after the 2008 crisis have actually made the banking sector even more concentrated and increased the likelihood of another such crash caused by moral hazard in the Too Big to Fail financial institutions. The procedures to fight against that, like "living wills", will likely have the same effectiveness as bulletproof vests made of wet toilet paper.

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