Earlier quoted context omitted.
Not voted in any way, but I cannot figure out what you tried to tell and how that would contribute to this discussion.
The short answer is, much of what we believe, both individually and collectively, is simply incorrect. In this case, my perception is that a person believed something to be untrue due to the idea having been labelled a conspiracy theory, and then after reading this story, he was less confident in the belief. Generalized, we might state this as: the perception of high accuracy in our beliefs is illusory. Not only does…
The U.S. tried to build a new fleet of ventilators
281–290 of 355 posts
Re: The U.S. tried to build a new fleet of ventilators
#282Earlier quoted context omitted.
They asked for evidence. I did as much, explaining a very, very basic concept in medicine, "sterile technique," and how even that can take years to get right. And was told, in response, that I'm just imagining reasons to object. Evidentally, keeping tools sterile in medicine is something I just conjured up! Perhaps you should take your own advice, rather than responding with personal vitriol directed at the users cou…
You immediately changed the subject from the one I posted. Why? And what vitriol are you referring to, which particular words that I wrote led you to form that conclusion?
Re: The U.S. tried to build a new fleet of ventilators
#283Earlier quoted context omitted.
You immediately changed the subject from the one I posted. Why? And what vitriol are you referring to, which particular words that I wrote led you to form that conclusion?
Because you're making a point of singling out every single reply in this thread that you disagree with, and making your objection about the user posting the comment rather than the comment yourself. Or broadly asserting that the parent comment never claimed points that were plainly written, and insisting on textual support. Your actual contrarianism is rather distracting.
I don't believe that is true, but even if it was, I don't understand why that would motivate you to change the subject. A reason I can easily think of though is that I believe you've unjustly accused someone of making a particular claim, and if you realized that was true (pure speculation here, that's why I'm asking), it would be a fairly common behavior for one to try and move the topic to someone else to avoid facing that topic directly.
Now that we've realized we've veered off course, I'm still curious to know what I've said that you interpret as vitriol. I believe I may fall somewhere on the autism spectrum, so it is helpful for me to know when (and how) I offend people.
Regarding the accuracy of that statement, I will try to explain my perspective on it:
> you're making a point of singling out every single reply in this thread that you disagree with
I don't have any particular opinion on the plausibility of civilians being trained to operate ventilators, so it seems quite unlikely I'd disagree with anyone on that. Rather, where I have replied it was regarding the accuracy of assertions. Are you able to provide a specific example of where you believe I've done this?
> and making your objection about the user posting the comment rather than the comment yourself
I'm not sure exactly what you mean by this, but the only time where I ever did something resembling "making it about the user" was when I suggested someone was falsely accusing someone else of making a specific claim, when I was unable to see any trace of them making that claim. Could you possibly provide an example where you believe I've done this?
> And claiming that the parent comment never claimed points that were plainly written.
I think you're a bit off base here, let's see if we can find where we disagree.
You wrote:
>> So, to be clear, you can blindly assert that sending incompetent pseudo-medics to perform invasive procedures will be beneficial, and assert that claim with absolute certainty and zero evidence.
This was in response to a thread that I will now quote in its entirety to facilitate efficient discussion and minimize opportunities for misunderstanding, including indications of whether I see your interpreted meaning in the text:
> Earlier in this thread it's stipulated that the bottleneck is not the number of ventilators but the trained people to operate them. As such, training more operators is an obvious solution, and allowing the new operators to be substandard will mean we can get more operators faster.
No.
> This pretty much dissolves your only real objection, that we'd be keeping a ventilator occupied that would otherwise be in use. Nope. The solution to a deficit of ventilators is producing more - not letting people die without them.
No.
> Generally, you are trying to invent reasons and restrictions to make trying to train ventilator-operators seem like a bad idea rather than understanding or advancing how the idea might be viable. An example of this is how you acknowledge that training other medical adjacent professionals (e.g. vetrenarians) would likely work. Great, you agree the idea could work. If you expect that our capacity will be overwhelmed then presumably you think we should training additional operators. Instead of reaching that conclusion you imagine reasons to object to the idea though.
No.
> A SWE would likely be worse than a vet after a bootcamp. That's a good reason to have some entry requirements to the bootcamp and those requirements could be relaxed or strengthened depending on where we expect demand to be in 30 days relative to supply. A SWE through a 30-day bootcamp would likely be better than nothing.
No.
> The other main constraint you've imagined is that they would need to save more people than they kill to be worthwhile. No, they'd need to save more people than would die without them. If it would be better to just struggle to breathe than have an amateur operator, that would be an argument against them.
No.
> Your credentials, whatever they are, haven't equipped you to clearly communicate your reasons for opposing this idea. As I mentioned, it seems like you actually support some version of it.
No.
I have come up short. Are you referring to a different comment than that one, or is there maybe something in the above text that you pick up on but I overlook?
Re: The U.S. tried to build a new fleet of ventilators
#284Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm not an MD but I've had contact, on-and-off, with mission-critical equipment in the energy sector (according to my university I'm an EE but I was cleverly disguised) and then I've worked in the medical equipment industry for a few years. I would be very, very surprised if the parent comment(s) weren't correct. Training, no matter how intensive, is no substitute for education. Getting nurses, doctors from other spe…
I fully expect that a person who has only thirty days training will be worse than a professional and their relative incompetence will kill people. I don't understand how that is an argument against the plan to train volunteers though. I'm reading that hospitals may be overwhelmed. I understand that to mean there will be more people requiring intensive care than capacity to give intensive care. If the choice is betwee…
It takes an inordinate amount of time just to teach people what they can and can't touch and when and how, how to wash their hands properly, how to put on and take off their masks/gloves, and where to stand so as not to be in the way of people. All this in the context of a pretty contagious disease. I am pretty sure that, within 20 days, most of the volunteers would be infected themselves, and end up putting even more strain on the system.
I've been in an OR as part of my job, and I'd definitely think twice before enrolling in a program like this one (and definitely not just for my own safety, although yeah, that would be a big factor, too).
Re: The U.S. tried to build a new fleet of ventilators
#285Earlier quoted context omitted.
Because you're making a point of singling out every single reply in this thread that you disagree with, and making your objection about the user posting the comment rather than the comment yourself. Or broadly asserting that the parent comment never claimed points that were plainly written, and insisting on textual support. Your actual contrarianism is rather distracting.
> Because you're making a point of singling out every single reply in this thread that you disagree with, and making your objection about the user posting the comment rather than the comment yourself. I don't believe that is true, but even if it was, I don't understand why that would motivate you to change the subject. A reason I can easily think of though is that I believe you've unjustly accused someone of making a…
Re: The U.S. tried to build a new fleet of ventilators
#286Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Because you're making a point of singling out every single reply in this thread that you disagree with, and making your objection about the user posting the comment rather than the comment yourself. I don't believe that is true, but even if it was, I don't understand why that would motivate you to change the subject. A reason I can easily think of though is that I believe you've unjustly accused someone of making a…
No.
Re: The U.S. tried to build a new fleet of ventilators
#287I find it strange that all we hear about these days is the shortage of ventilators (okay, PPE too), as if it’s the only bottleneck. The reality is ventilators are useless without intensivists to operate them, and you need anesthesiologists and probably other skilled personnel too. I learned through a personal connection who was actually on the ground in Hubei (but not Wuhan) caring for serious but non-ICU patients th…
I wonder how long it would take to teach someone to be more help than harm? After 30 intensive days of training, what would candidates lack?
The army knows how to train people to basic competency very fast, and they know a thing or two about drafting volunteers ;)
Not everyone need be coming in completely untrained. And job shadowing is the obvious thing most people are over looking. Nobody is going to dump a bucket of scrubs with 30-days classroom training all over the ER floor. Groups of trainees would be shadowing trained professionals 15 hours a day.
Re: The U.S. tried to build a new fleet of ventilators
#288Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I believe the point is that the minimum amount of training required to be of greater help than hindrance (i.e., net benefit) in an ICU and running ventilators is sufficiently high that it's not a small thing to spin up a cohort. Point of contention is what it seems like to me. There's certainly no shortage of people asserting that point, but what confuses me is, how does everyone know with such high certainty what…
Because it's common sense that an invasive medical procedure needs to be administered by someone with some semblance of competence in medicine, if you expect the patient to have a shot at not dying. An emergency doesn't change the hard technical requirement of administering ventilation. Or rather, this should be common sense, but the over-inflated egos on HN don't understand that it takes more than knowing which butt…
Common sense does not determine how difficult something is, how difficult it is determines that. Reality, for the most part, flows into the brain from the outside world, not the other way around.
> An emergency doesn't change the hard technical requirement of administering ventilation.
Neither does common sense. The "the hard technical requirement of administering ventilation" is precisely as hard as it is. So, how hard is that? You represent (in poker parlance) that you know the answers to such things, but you seem reluctant to provide evidence.
> Or rather, this should be common sense, but the over-inflated egos on HN don't understand that it takes more than knowing which button does what to operate a ventilator.
This seems a bit ironic, because no one other than you has made that specific claim.
> Being able to hold a paint brush is a very different skill level than painting a portrait.
Now this statement is actually correct, but unfortunately I don't think it has much relevance to the topic at hand.
Re: The U.S. tried to build a new fleet of ventilators
#289Earlier quoted context omitted.
Because it's common sense that an invasive medical procedure needs to be administered by someone with some semblance of competence in medicine, if you expect the patient to have a shot at not dying. An emergency doesn't change the hard technical requirement of administering ventilation. Or rather, this should be common sense, but the over-inflated egos on HN don't understand that it takes more than knowing which butt…
> Being able to hold a paint brush is a very different skill level than painting a portrait. Painful given some past threads on this subject. Other than that: spot on.
Re: The U.S. tried to build a new fleet of ventilators
#290Earlier quoted context omitted.
Imagine thinking that claim was actually contained within that comment.
> Of course, it flies in the face of a common sense view that someone careful, able to follow orders, just hold things or press button etc would provide some use in a world where the doctors are fundamentally limited.