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The U.S. tried to build a new fleet of ventilators

nytimes.com

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Re: The U.S. tried to build a new fleet of ventilators

#271

Post by omar_a1 »

jacquesm wrote: post #255
triangleman wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I have read the Italians have repurposed all kinds of doctors to be able to treat Covid patients as best they can with all available equipment. So I don't think it's too far out to say that in New York and other places you will see doctors stepping up and learning on the job in order to treat this disease. You will also see doctors coming into New York from other places to help.

Yes, and for doctors that may make more or less sense. But that's very far from the ideal situation: that we had managed to keep things under control when we could and that right now we stay home as much as possible to reduce the load on the system. But since people aren't even doing that (see this gem of a thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22724268 ) I fail to see why we should at the same time break thin…

> Let's first all stay the fuck home

This is a good point. Preventative medicine is the best medicine. That's true in general, but is especially true during this type of crisis.

We should also be more strict about isolation measures and lockdown, both individually and as a matter of policy and enforcement. That would keep our hospitals from flooding, to a much greater degree than an army of respiration therapists and ventilators would.

> All this well intentioned backseat driving isn't going to move the needle, not even a little bit.

But how else shall we spend our weekends locked indoors without pointless arguments on the internet? ;)

Re: The U.S. tried to build a new fleet of ventilators

#272

Post by cycrutchfield »

URSpider94 wrote: post #183
cycrutchfield wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

About 4 years of medical school, and around 4 more years of residency training.

Doctors don’t run ventilators. Respiratory therapists do. A respiratory therapy degree is a 2-year associates degree that includes basic training on physiology and biology. I’m betting that someone with an undergraduate degree in biology could learn the role in a few months of intensive training. Doctors would still be responsible for reviewing the care protocol and making decisions on treatment, but one doctor could…

It was a tongue-in-cheek comment. The point was that it takes more than a 30 day bootcamp to be more of an asset than a liability in a critical care environment.

HN denizens apparently seem to disagree, and believe that if you can learn some JavaScript framework in 30 days you can do anything in 30 days, but the world doesn’t work like that.

Re: The U.S. tried to build a new fleet of ventilators

#273

Post by syspec »

robomartin wrote: post #190
Erwin wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Media are suffering at least in this country. Not much interest in buying ads these days. If the newspapers get more people to pay for their stories, they will have to fire the journalist hard at work on the Corona stories.

Here's the fallacy with what you are saying: Click-through-rates are not going to increase because people signed-up for a free account with an email address. Greater revenue comes from greater traffic. Simple as that. If every time I see an interesting link from the NY Times and try to read it I am hit with a modal subscription request, well, very soon I just stop clicking NY Times links. The other side of that is pa…

All nytimes articles related to covid19 are free, but you do have to sign in

Re: The U.S. tried to build a new fleet of ventilators

#274

Post by jjeaff »

omar_a1 wrote: post #260
mistermann wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The number of people on here perceiving or claiming that people are trivializing modern medicine, when their actual words say nothing of the kind, may also be unhelpful.

Claiming that untrained staff could administer a ventilator from a 30 day bootcamp fits under that definition.

Are you medically trained in the use of a ventilator? If not, I don't see how you could make that judgment either.

Re: The U.S. tried to build a new fleet of ventilators

#275

Post by barry-cotter »

cycrutchfield wrote: post #266
barry-cotter wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's definitely good and worth exploring in the future. There will be time to explore how to have smarter tools that can be used with a less general skillset can be developed. There will also be time to explore how to develop specialized and narrow curricula for such things - itself not a trivial task. This will happen soon or not at all. The AMA and its equivalents worldwide have a very consistent attitude to anyo…

Pretty reasonable if you ask me. History is littered with quacks and snake oil salesmen. There is a reason why becoming a physician is such an arduous and selective process.

> History is littered with quacks and snake oil salesmen.

Indeed, doctors did more harm than good until the early 1900s at the earliest, and we can only be sure that they were on net leading to lower rather than higher mortality with the introduction of antibiotics.

Re: The U.S. tried to build a new fleet of ventilators

#276

Post by omar_a1 »

jjeaff wrote: post #274
omar_a1 wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Claiming that untrained staff could administer a ventilator from a 30 day bootcamp fits under that definition.

Are you medically trained in the use of a ventilator? If not, I don't see how you could make that judgment either.

No, and I'm not a brain surgeon either, so I suppose I can't claim you aren't qualified to perform brain surgery, using that logic. Better scrub up!

But if you're going to claim the contrary, I take it that you have a wealth of experience administering ventilation.

For the record, I've worked in fields tangential to medicine, including lab research for FDA trials and health tech. I may not be qualified to operate a ventilator, but I'm experienced enough to understand the technical skill gap between a non-invasive procedure and an invasive one. And ventilation falls into the latter category.

Re: The U.S. tried to build a new fleet of ventilators

#277

Post by mistermann »

omar_a1 wrote: post #265
mistermann wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are accusing him of saying things that he has clearly not said. And then on top of it, accuse him of having a problem with his imagination. At the very least, this behavior seems disrespectful. I encourage you to print off, on paper, your portions of this thread, and then draw lines between your claims of what he said, and the corresponding words he wrote. Then, compare the contents of the pairs. After doing this…

They asked for evidence. I did as much, explaining a very, very basic concept in medicine, "sterile technique," and how even that can take years to get right. And was told, in response, that I'm just imagining reasons to object. Evidentally, keeping tools sterile in medicine is something I just conjured up! Perhaps you should take your own advice, rather than responding with personal vitriol directed at the users cou…

You immediately changed the subject from the one I posted. Why?

And what vitriol are you referring to, which particular words that I wrote led you to form that conclusion?

Re: The U.S. tried to build a new fleet of ventilators

#278

Post by mistermann »

omar_a1 wrote: post #260
mistermann wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The number of people on here perceiving or claiming that people are trivializing modern medicine, when their actual words say nothing of the kind, may also be unhelpful.

Claiming that untrained staff could administer a ventilator from a 30 day bootcamp fits under that definition.

Perhaps I missed it, could you quote the text of that claim, please?

Re: The U.S. tried to build a new fleet of ventilators

#279

Post by mistermann »

jacquesm wrote: post #154
omar_a1 wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obviously because being an ICU doctor isn't something hard like writing code. Fewer buttons on a ventilator! /s But seriously, the amount of people on here trivializing modern medicine isn't helping matters. Granted, neither is business-as-usual, but a 30-day "ventilator boot camp" for untrained professionals is going to kill far more people than it helps. And a poor allocation of resources during a time of scarcity.

> But seriously, the amount of people on here trivializing modern medicine isn't helping matters. It's absolutely incredible. But that's exactly the kind of attitude that 'move fast and break things' fosters.

"Trivializing modern medicine" seems inconsistent with what I've read here, can you quote the text where someone has done this?

Re: The U.S. tried to build a new fleet of ventilators

#280

Post by m0xte »

pdonis wrote: post #170
m0xte wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well the first thing you do is ban professional politicians and lobbying.

As I commented upthread, your solution is to just change the entire system of government. Sure, that should be simple. Not.

Big problems require drastic changes.
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