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You’re not writing code, you’re solving problems

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Re: You’re not writing code, you’re solving problems

#31

Post by quonn »

crimsonalucard wrote: post #27
datalist wrote: post #19

"You're not cooking meals, you're solving problems"

There's a real lack of humility among our industry, especially in the AI space. Literally you can google "AI solves world peace" or "AI solves COVID-19" and you'll hit an article. We also call ourselves ninjas when most of us are just building hugely complex infrastructure behind what is ultimately just a CRUD website.

This classification of applications as CRUD or not CRUD is not helpful. It‘s like thinking about software as just IO or as just some sort of transformation or even as just some sort of function. It says nothing about the complexity and very little about the structure of the problem at hand.

Re: You’re not writing code, you’re solving problems

#32

Post by heavenlyblue »

acdha wrote: post #15
heavenlyblue wrote: post #5

Astrologers announced the week of the epidemic: the number of useless posts to increase traffic to your website had quadrupled.

If you don’t like it, don’t vote for it and move on. A content-free comment complaining that someone on the internet made something and gave it to you for free doesn’t add to the conversation.

My life would be much easier if I didn't have to dig through piles of useless garbage like that post.

As a matter of fact that's why I like and keep coming back to Hacker News is because most of the posts I can read here are less fluffy than anywhere else.

So yeah, if I don't respect something I am willing to fight for the right to see something I have respect for; even if I don't like it btw.

Re: You’re not writing code, you’re solving problems

#33

Post by perl4ever »

crimsonalucard wrote: post #24

If you write code to solve problems then you are a coder, just like if you drive trucks to solve a transportation problem. What's the point of getting into semantics? What programmer on the face of this earth doesn't realize that they're hired to code up a solution to some problem? Is this article implying that there are programmers out there who believe they are employed to write beautiful code to be looked at and a…

From reading HN, it seems like there is a cultural outlook where everything other than the problem to be solved is first and foremost when choosing a place to work. Like, do they use the right tools, the right OS, the right management methodology, have the right perks.

And when I look at job ads, it seems clear that there is a fair amount of competition among employers to appeal to these sorts of employees, by following trends or appearing to.

I think it's obvious why - people who care about things other than problems for their own sake, if talented and self-motivated, are more versatile and therefore valuable, because they will do a more or less equally good job on any problem.

This cultural dynamic is, I think, an obvious emergent dynamic that has made "don't be evil" a futile aspiration, not just for Google, but for the software industry in general.

Re: You’re not writing code, you’re solving problems

#35

Post by superpermutat0r »

perl4ever wrote: post #33
crimsonalucard wrote: post #24

If you write code to solve problems then you are a coder, just like if you drive trucks to solve a transportation problem. What's the point of getting into semantics? What programmer on the face of this earth doesn't realize that they're hired to code up a solution to some problem? Is this article implying that there are programmers out there who believe they are employed to write beautiful code to be looked at and a…

From reading HN, it seems like there is a cultural outlook where everything other than the problem to be solved is first and foremost when choosing a place to work. Like, do they use the right tools, the right OS, the right management methodology, have the right perks. And when I look at job ads, it seems clear that there is a fair amount of competition among employers to appeal to these sorts of employees, by follow…

Yeah, I never understood the HR reps approaching me and listing all of the technologies company uses. After reading that I still have no idea what company is doing and why they would need someone like me.

Re: You’re not writing code, you’re solving problems

#36

Post by lioeters »

bsdubernerd wrote: post #30
datalist wrote: post #19

"You're not cooking meals, you're solving problems"

By extension (and legitimate curiosity), who _isn't_ solving an actual problem in his day job? I can think of many classes of artists, but cannot put a blank statement for _all_ of them.

Some artists, I believe, are playing the game of creating and solving problems - where they make up the rules so that interesting problems can arise. J.S. Bach and his canons for example.

It may also be joked that some politicians aren't solving actual problems (but creating new ones) in their day job.

Re: You’re not writing code, you’re solving problems

#37

Post by kazinator »

lioeters wrote: post #36
bsdubernerd wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By extension (and legitimate curiosity), who _isn't_ solving an actual problem in his day job? I can think of many classes of artists, but cannot put a blank statement for _all_ of them.

Some artists, I believe, are playing the game of creating and solving problems - where they make up the rules so that interesting problems can arise. J.S. Bach and his canons for example. It may also be joked that some politicians aren't solving actual problems (but creating new ones) in their day job.

Some politicians do solve problems sometimes; it's the bulk of the massive bureaucracy in government that doesn't solve problems, other than feeding itself and ensuring its own propagation.

Re: You’re not writing code, you’re solving problems

#38

Post by perl4ever »

superpermutat0r wrote: post #35
perl4ever wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From reading HN, it seems like there is a cultural outlook where everything other than the problem to be solved is first and foremost when choosing a place to work. Like, do they use the right tools, the right OS, the right management methodology, have the right perks. And when I look at job ads, it seems clear that there is a fair amount of competition among employers to appeal to these sorts of employees, by follow…

Yeah, I never understood the HR reps approaching me and listing all of the technologies company uses. After reading that I still have no idea what company is doing and why they would need someone like me.

My last phone screen, I had a job and was pretty sure I didn't want to go anywhere, so I was free to express myself and talked about how much I liked the sort of problems I was dealing with at work. The feedback to the recruiter was "he didn't sound technical enough"...despite them not asking any technical questions.

Everybody wants to save the world of course, but it seems like the modal outlook is that everything else comes first, including all the dealbreakers, and the substance of what you are doing is mostly pro forma.

Re: You’re not writing code, you’re solving problems

#39

Post by lioeters »

blondin wrote: post #28
amelius wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a spectrum. I just wrote down the two ends. Also, an artist's constraints are often self-prescribed, and they can easily change them if they like.

> Also, an artist's constraints are often self-prescribed, and they can easily change them if they like. the most amazing art (both graphics and music) i have seen on computer were from atari, amiga, & c64 demosceners. these artists had real software and hardware contraints. i like what you said about it being a spectrum though. i think it's hard to tell when engineering becomes art and art becomes engineering. but o…

There's also a fair bit of "engineering for engineering's sake" (as a parallel of "art for art's sake" - "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_for_art's_sake), "divorced from any didactic, moral, politic, or utilitarian function".

Re: You’re not writing code, you’re solving problems

#40

Post by nybblesio »

NOTE: This is tongue-in-cheek (for the most part). However, I cannot help but feel that articles like this are a subtle form of social manipulation; especially for younger, less experienced programmers.

From the article:

* The software is not the purpose

Translation: your craft, how you do it, and why are not important. Going meta for your profession is not valued and if people see you doing it, you're in trouble. Let the guilt wash over you, heathen!

* Understand the problem

Translation: going meta (refactoring, egads!) is wrong. We're watching you and if you do this, you're in trouble. If you aren't feeling guilty yet, now is the appropriate time. In addition, you must feel shame for your irresponsibility!

* Perfect is the enemy of good enough

Translation: going meta -- unless it is to realize a clever kludge -- means you are a perfectionist. You're wrong! We're watching you and if you do this, you're in trouble. You're one of those prima donna programmers, aren't you? We have no need for you!

* Choose your battles

Translation: Everyone starts off doing everything by hand, so -- you know -- the whole notion of writing software in the first place is kind of a Faustian Bargain. Hey, why did we hire you anyway? It's clear you're one of those whinging, prima donna, basement dwelling, perfectionist, programmer A-type people. I see we need more money in the "team building" budget. You're fired. Now is the appropriate time to feel like a loser, because you are!

* The best cod (sic) you can write, is no code at all

Translation: We can't even be bothered to spell "code" properly, which shows you how important it is to us. Truthfully, if there were a magic product we could buy that does what you do -- but better! -- we would. Don't you dare start thinking about weighing cost/benefit of buy-versus-build. We know you programmer types. You just want to build stuff and it's never the right stuff and you can't estimate for crap and your profession doesn't matter. Screw it, let's just put out an RFP and see if someone has a silver bullet so we can use it against you programmers! Lead bullets aren't working.

Postscript:

OK, now that I got all the snark out of my system, I feel better. It isn't that parts of this article are wrong but rather it makes extremely broad assumptions that all programmers are doing the same thing, in the same context, for the same reasons.

The current gestalt around software development appears to be that only a select few are allowed to decide the "state of the art" in the profession. These anointed few enjoy autonomy and full creativity but the rest of us must check our brains at the door.

Maybe it's just me, but I find this attitude extremely risky and deleterious to the industry and the human race. Of course, I am a grey beard, basement-dwelling, prima donna, perfectionist, anti-social, programmer so nobody will be surprised.

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