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Mobile CPUs and the Performance Inequality Gap

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Re: Mobile CPUs and the Performance Inequality Gap

#31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's because it's not performance that's holding back PWAs. With a bit of work, perf was good enough for web apps on an iPhone 4S or earlier. iPhone 4s was released in 2011, so if low-end android devices are not hitting 2012/2013 iPhone performance levels, then they're also good enough for PWAs. It's the lack of platform APIs for things like offline storage and push notifications that are holding back web apps, not…

I bought my son a MotoG back in 2017. Because I kept reading that it was a good midrange Android phone. It was slow running “native” apps, web performance was even worse. He was more than happy to “upgrade” to my iPhone 6s (2015) in 2018. Performance was noticeable better. Also, it is still supported by the latest version of iOS. Of course by then the phone was three years old so I replaced the battery.

ios 14 won't support 6s most probably and soon your iphone 6s will go to trash.

So your comment is lucky to have some truth for a couple of months while I look at my trashed iphone5 and iphone 6.

Re: Mobile CPUs and the Performance Inequality Gap

#32
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because Angular, React, Vue aren't needed for like 90% of those applications, server side rendering is more than enough. Specially when tons of "native" applications are actually Cordova and Ionic garbage that take longer to start than a HTTP server reply to the native browser. Native applications are great, when we are talking about stuff that actually makes use of the GPGPU or hardware sensors. Outside games, offic…

How are you going to have a PWA that works offline with server side rendering? The latest “Apple wants to force everyone to develop apps instead of using the web so they can get their 30% cut of mostly free apps” controversy was about offline storage expiring after 7 days. Not to mention that the same people who are buying cheap Android phones probably have limited data plans and/or low bandwidth.

By having a server worker that caches the whole site, done.

Apple's decision doesn't apply to PWAs as clarified on a later update.

Plus updating the browser cache every couple of days isn't a big deal, native apps get store updates almost every day.

Re: Mobile CPUs and the Performance Inequality Gap

#33
post #3

What do you iPhone users do with all of your power?

Well, for example, I recently used my iPhone X to edit a 4K 60fps video using iMovie. This was quick, easy, and all playback was silky smooth. I did this while sitting at the airport lounge waiting for my flight, and it didn't use too much of my battery. Meanwhile, my very high-end gaming PC struggles to play the video files from my iPhone at 60fps for some mysterious reason.

Yes it’s funny how fast people forget how much power is actually required to run all that basic stuff included in mobile OSes by default. Take the camera app on iOS e.g, it stitches 20+ MP panoramas in real-time, with filers enabled, does continuous zoom by combining images from multiple cameras etc. It wasn’t very long ago that I had software on my Linux desktop PC that did that (with much worse results) and it took up to half an hour in some cases. Or try browsing the modern web with a iPhone 4 or a ~5 year old Android phone for that matter. You don’t need to be a power user at all to benefit from the increase in processing capabilities in modern phones.

Re: Mobile CPUs and the Performance Inequality Gap

#34
Seems to me if you want an "equal" experience across the board, you make the clients responsible for the bare minimum functionality. Everything that can be is processed server-side. You should target the lowest common denominator wherever possible. Anything else is tantamount to digital elitism or simply bad customer service.

Assuming compute & bandwidth costs are fixed, are there any remaining justifications for doing SPA, et. al., especially if the server is required at all times in order to satisfy application requests? Is pushing a final compressed DOM over the wire really all that much worse than pushing 20 different JSON objects in order to recompose the same logical DOM client-side? Doesn't it seem like one of these approaches would be substantially faster and easier than the other in most cases?

I think we got off track somewhere around when cloud computing was introduced. I can see a huge motivating factor for pushing the "offload to client" narrative if your cloud compute portfolio provides 10% the relative cost-adjusted performance compared to a rack full of DL380s sitting in a colo. With the density of compute being offered today (e.g. 256 x86 cores in a 2U w/ 2TB ram), I feel a lot of businesses should start to look back to these approaches. The software and operating systems have vastly improved as well. Just take look at the performance you get with something like Kestrel in .Net Core:

https://www.techempower.com/benchmarks/#section=data-r18&hw=...

Nearly 7 million HTTP requests per second on a single 10GBe host. For 99% of business applications out there, just 1 of these servers is probably all you would ever need... A decade ago we were putting the finishing touches on 10k/second. Why the hell are we not aggressively trying to leverage this 100x speedup? Is it because all of this extra margin is being spread thin by Amazon, et. al for purposes of maximum profit extraction? Or, is there a more nuanced game afoot?

Re: Mobile CPUs and the Performance Inequality Gap

#36
post #34

Seems to me if you want an "equal" experience across the board, you make the clients responsible for the bare minimum functionality. Everything that can be is processed server-side. You should target the lowest common denominator wherever possible. Anything else is tantamount to digital elitism or simply bad customer service. Assuming compute & bandwidth costs are fixed, are there any remaining justifications for doi…

SPA is overused to be sure. But people are also building far more complex things on the web now and some of them are difficult or impossible to do purely with SSR. So pick the right tool for the job but let’s not pretend that we can do everything with just one tool.

And you might say those kinds of applications shouldn’t be built on the web but I’d rather have them on the web than locked up in some proprietary app store with all the centralization and potential abuses of power that allows.

Re: Mobile CPUs and the Performance Inequality Gap

#37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I bought my son a MotoG back in 2017. Because I kept reading that it was a good midrange Android phone. It was slow running “native” apps, web performance was even worse. He was more than happy to “upgrade” to my iPhone 6s (2015) in 2018. Performance was noticeable better. Also, it is still supported by the latest version of iOS. Of course by then the phone was three years old so I replaced the battery.

ios 14 won't support 6s most probably and soon your iphone 6s will go to trash. So your comment is lucky to have some truth for a couple of months while I look at my trashed iphone5 and iphone 6.

The iPhone 6s would have gotten 5 years of os upgrades. But, just because Apple won’t support a device with latest version of iOS, doesn’t mean that it won’t provide security patches and bug fixes. For instance, Apple released bug fix patches for iOS 9 and iOS 10 supporting phones back to 2011 last year.

https://appleinsider.com/articles/19/07/22/apple-issues-ios-...

As far as going into the trash. I had an old iPad 1st generation (2010) that last saw an OS upgrade in 2011. I could still download the “last compatible version” of apps like Netflix, Hulu, Plex and Crackle and they still work. iCloud syncing also works with Apple’s iWork apps and the built in apps (except for Notes).

Re: Mobile CPUs and the Performance Inequality Gap

#38
post #3

What do you iPhone users do with all of your power?

Well, for example, I recently used my iPhone X to edit a 4K 60fps video using iMovie. This was quick, easy, and all playback was silky smooth. I did this while sitting at the airport lounge waiting for my flight, and it didn't use too much of my battery. Meanwhile, my very high-end gaming PC struggles to play the video files from my iPhone at 60fps for some mysterious reason.

The playback issue (and the reason video editing went so smoothly) is probably because of hardware video codex support. Mobile devices, iPhone or otherwise, are miles ahead of most desktop graphics cards when it comes to video codec support.

H.265 support in graphics cards and consumer processors has laughably lacked behind on mobile, probably because of licensing.

There's also the fact that a lot of video applications on Windows don't enable hardware decoding by default out of fear of encountering buggy drivers or hardware.

On mobile there's basically only one way to decode video, which makes use of all the phone's dedicated hardware, while on desktop applications can use a wide variety of codecs. Then comes the decision whether to decode on the CPU or GPU, as both have hardware decoding support these days, or to fall back to software decoding because the specific combination of codec and bit depth wasn't supported by the hardware of choice.

Then there's the fact that Apple logically encodes video the camera records into a format that iMovie is well optimised for. If you encode video with your PC's GPU, it'll probably be just as snappy playing back while the iPhone video might still be struggling.

Re: Mobile CPUs and the Performance Inequality Gap

#39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ios 14 won't support 6s most probably and soon your iphone 6s will go to trash. So your comment is lucky to have some truth for a couple of months while I look at my trashed iphone5 and iphone 6.

The iPhone 6s would have gotten 5 years of os upgrades. But, just because Apple won’t support a device with latest version of iOS, doesn’t mean that it won’t provide security patches and bug fixes. For instance, Apple released bug fix patches for iOS 9 and iOS 10 supporting phones back to 2011 last year. https://appleinsider.com/articles/19/07/22/apple-issues-ios-... As far as going into the trash. I had an old iPad…

basic html support doesn't work on earlier versions of ios safari due to the wrong decision that safari is bundled to ios.

you heard safari is the new internet explorer? that's why it's impractical and unsafe to use earlier versions of ios.

Re: Mobile CPUs and the Performance Inequality Gap

#40
post #22
post #17

This is essentially Qualcomm vs Apple in the mobile market. But the question I've got from looking at the the Geekbench site: iPhone 11: https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/1611448 AMD 3900x 12 Zen 2 12 Core: https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/1611445 The iPhone has higher single core performance than a desktop CPU with a 105W TDP. Of course it has more cores. But am I missing something here? Is this test actually…

Geekbench is not measuring raw performance in terms of operations per second. It's measuring very specific use cases (their current blurb mentions AI and ML, in the past mentioned synthetic tests to approximate browsers). Because thermal constraints would prevent Apple from competing in a brute force approach, Apple have been more willing to include specialised hardware for tasks like AI/ML as in the A12 CPU. Of cour…

Operations per second is a notoriously useless measure. Which is why we have higher-level benchmarks like GeekBench that are actually incredibly broad in what they test, performing a lot of real-world type activities in a larger macro-benchmark suite.

The Bionic chips aren't cheating to a win. They win GeekBench, and virtually any other cross-platform activity that you can throw at them. As I mentioned in another post, my iPhone 11 absolutely lays waste to my laptop with an i7-7700HQ processor at the JetStream 2 benchmark. Now this is a JavaScript benchmark that runs on completely different software stacks / OS / etc (my i7 running Windows 10, Chrome 80, etc), but it is layers and layers of dependencies on the performance of the platform. And my big beefy i7 is beaten by a tiny little mobile processor. It is quite remarkable.

It's a blazingly fast little processor. We would probably have seen them use them in other hardware sooner if Apple wasn't always suspicious that Intel was sandbagging in some way and was ready to wow the industry.

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