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Huawei is dividing Western nations

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121–130 of 153 posts

Re: Huawei is dividing Western nations

#121
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When the president of the USA openly disparages Europe at every opportunity, it's pretty difficult to feel very sympathetic with the us administration on such matters.

I don't think Americans realise how much diplomatic influence has been lost in Europe. To me the American tradition of a politicised diplomatic corps is to blame. The politics of Trump is just very far from mainstream European politics. I am personally convinced that had the campaign against Huawei been done by the Obama administration there would be no Huawei technology in the EU at this point.

Of course Obama would have been successful.

For one thing, when he required the Europeans to increase their NATO contributions he did it quietly, without publicly insulting them, and got them to commit to increase it over a period of a decade, which is reasonable. Unlike stand he never threatened America’s commitment to NATO itself.

For another, his first major international economic action wasn’t dropping steel tariffs on his Europeans allies.

And finally, he worked with his European allies to build an effective deal with Iran, that gave Europeans something they wanted and reduced the threat of additional war in the Middle East, whole building an effective counter balance to the Saudis, instead of flippantly and unilaterally tearing it apart causing European allies unnecessary political, military, and economic headaches.

Re: Huawei is dividing Western nations

#122
post #11

I think the main issue is that most europeans are just not so hot on a war with China as the americans are; even after a massive media campaign. I believe the next move by the US will be to force TSMC not to supply Huawei. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-huawei-tech-chips-exc... That will be a major blow to Huawei (and TSMC) and will force the Chinese to setup their own chip production as fast as possible. Wil…

This will be quite interesting. This is literally, the ultimate Trump card, that Trump himself will play. If TSMC does this, then they will not only lose Huawei, but they will lose the entire 1.4 billion population market of China. As well as Africa, and likely, Southeast Asia, and India, and Pakistan too. They will probably also lose Eastern Europe, and Russia too. They’ll also probably lose South America too, and t…

I agree. From a technical perspective this is very exciting; all of a sudden there is an open field on all these fundamental building blocks.

But for an American strategic perspective I think it would have made more sense to keep the Chinese dependent on American operating systems and Taiwan produced chips.

Re: Huawei is dividing Western nations

#123
post #51

So the US preaches nationalism, protectionism, and isolationism except when it's not in their own interest? Edit: My point (which probably wasn't clear) was that if you run an "America First" agenda. Don't be surprised when your allies start prioritizing their own interest above mutual interests.

Yes. Each nation looks out for its own interests and the interests of its citizens. The only thing that's surprising is that a large number of citizens seem to think that this is unusual or immoral.

A large number of citizens think that it makes sense for a certain set of nations to work together in many arenas. For decades, Western Europe and North America worked together to both regions’ mutual benefit.

Trump has torn that apart, which has basically hurt both sides to China’s benefit which appears as a far less capricious partner.

Re: Huawei is dividing Western nations

#124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The UK is weak following Brexit, it needs friends wherever it can find them.

The UK's weakness was exposed by the 2011 veto and subsequent upending of the EU treaties to suit everyone apart from the UK. We had been floundering in that club since 2009, despite bailing out other members (ie. Ireland) - and when push came to shove Germany and France made it clear that the UK could shove off. The UK is no weaker now than it was then - it's just that it's clear where we stand. The great powers of…

Despite all that, the real undeniable facts are that no country has prospered inside the EU sad much as the UK has. And that the UK was stinking it up big time before it joined the EU.

The UK has traded limited political power as a member of the EU for no political power at all. And in return it has gotten a much worse economic position, where it will be stuck between pleasing the US, EU and China in turn for the foreseeable future, while losing the economic benefits it got from being the default English speaking gateway to Europe.

Re: Huawei is dividing Western nations

#125
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. Each nation looks out for its own interests and the interests of its citizens. The only thing that's surprising is that a large number of citizens seem to think that this is unusual or immoral.

A large number of citizens think that it makes sense for a certain set of nations to work together in many arenas. For decades, Western Europe and North America worked together to both regions’ mutual benefit. Trump has torn that apart, which has basically hurt both sides to China’s benefit which appears as a far less capricious partner.

Nations should work together when their interests coincide. That's just a generalization of the idea that nations work to support their own interests. But, quite often, those interests are in conflict.

Some people appear motivated to shit on some nations while ignoring the depredations of others. Perversely, they are opposed to the nation of which they are citizens and embrace "the other side".

For example, the claim that "China appears the less capricious partner" ignores an enormous amount of evidence that China screws over international partners with no hesitation should that be in its interests.

See the recent stories about WHO delaying the release of information from Taiwan about the coronavirus.

https://www.ft.com/content/2a70a02a-644a-11ea-a6cd-df28cc3c6...

(The U.S. currently being lead by a lunatic is a side issue.)

Re: Huawei is dividing Western nations

#126

Western nations don't need anyone to divide. Just see the brexit or covid-19 situations ...

Arguably brexit is the result of Russia's psyops effort on the UK, much like it did in the last US presidential elections. And let's not pretend that Russia hasn't been caught financing and supporting far-right parties throughout Europe. https://www.ft.com/content/48c4bfa6-7ca2-11e9-81d2-f785092ab...

That's unbelievable rubbish

Re: Huawei is dividing Western nations

#127
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This rhetoric against China, legitimate or not, seems like a precursor to war. I wish somebody would investigate if a troll factory is behind it or if it truly is a popular opinion.

I for one am surprised that anyone who is aware of some of the actions perpetrated by China's ruling regime with regards to their handling of the covid19 outbreak feels that they don't warant any criticism, and tried to pin any criticism on conspiracy theories involving troll farms and beating war drums.

That is all legitimate, but look at the comments in topics like this. They are filled with hatred, not reason.

Re: Huawei is dividing Western nations

#128
post #118
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This rhetoric against China, legitimate or not, seems like a precursor to war. I wish somebody would investigate if a troll factory is behind it or if it truly is a popular opinion.

Rather China's actions seem like precursor to war. Corona virus crisis may be the tipping point in Chinese influence growth as people become aware how West is becoming more and more relient on China.

That is a reasonable perspective but public discussion on the subject is often derailed by hordes of people spewing blind anger.

Re: Huawei is dividing Western nations

#129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The power of humans is that they adapt. Mentioning something of 50 years ago won't help, since I live in the present. Not in the past

Okay, so if I steal from you, it's all fine, because that happened in the past, not in the present? What a weird way to look at the world.

So you're moving back to England leaving the US soil to Indians?

Re: Huawei is dividing Western nations

#130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The UK's weakness was exposed by the 2011 veto and subsequent upending of the EU treaties to suit everyone apart from the UK. We had been floundering in that club since 2009, despite bailing out other members (ie. Ireland) - and when push came to shove Germany and France made it clear that the UK could shove off. The UK is no weaker now than it was then - it's just that it's clear where we stand. The great powers of…

Despite all that, the real undeniable facts are that no country has prospered inside the EU sad much as the UK has. And that the UK was stinking it up big time before it joined the EU. The UK has traded limited political power as a member of the EU for no political power at all. And in return it has gotten a much worse economic position, where it will be stuck between pleasing the US, EU and China in turn for the for…

Ok - the EU was founded 1st November 1993; I remember the UK as a centre for world finance and one of the most prosperous and settled nations in the world at that time. I could have been very drunk and made a mistake however.

But - I think you are referring to the state of the UK when it joined the EEC in 1973. The UK was in fact in a big mess at that point - which promptly got a lot bigger. This led to IMF intervention in 1976 [1]. This was not a big win for the EEC at that point in my book. The UK was in a big hole because it had spent all its money on unwinding its empire and failed to either properly retool its industries or pay down its second world war debt. The EEC and Europe in general did not help or bail out the UK - in fact they continued to expect payments from the UK in the midst of all this, a pattern that I fear Italy and Spain are about to encounter in the way that sentances encounter full stops.

What turned this round - the discovery of North Sea Oil. This enabled Thatcher to restructure the UK economy, recapitalize the City of London and hey presto off the UK went to the races. The big buggeration was the collapse of the Soviet Union which meant a restructuring of Europe in order to prevent the East from falling into anarchy and exposing the German state to abject collapse. Thus we all got swept up into the EU.

Anyway, if you want to argue about "prospered inside the EU sad much as the UK has" I ask you to look at the economic performance of Germany.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1976_IMF_crisis

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