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The iOS and Mac markets are almost the same size?

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Re: The iOS and Mac markets are almost the same size?

#111
post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The weight of Chrome as a browser and the more general concept of using the web as a desktop app platform are two different things. I think that when most people complain about "electron apps", what they're complaining about is the latter. If you're complaining about the former, I think that's more fair. Although, I do question whether a third-party browser even has access to the APIs that make Safari's efficiency wh…

> The weight of Chrome as a browser and the more general concept of using the web as a desktop app platform are two different things. I understand where you're coming from, but when someone says says "Electron apps are slow resource hogs", they're fundamentally referring to the underlying engine that makes those apps slow. If that engine was fast and light on resources, the complaint wouldn't exist. Apple _does_ allo…

> they're fundamentally referring to the underlying engine that makes those apps slow. If that engine was fast and light on resources, the complaint wouldn't exist.

Firstly: in that case you'd have to compare it to the weight of the entire desktop environment. I would bet money that Gnome + your GTK app is not meaningfully lighter-weight than Chrome + an Electron app. It's just that the former has a privileged place in the OS, and is a dynamically-linked dependency instead of a statically-linked one (using those terms loosely).

Secondly: The web itself is not fundamentally slow. People who aren't web developers love to repeat this mantra, but it's simply not true. That's what I'm trying to get to the heart of here:

1) JavaScript is slower than C++, but it's very rare that enough actual work is being done in JavaScript for it to become a bottleneck (on the UI side), even in complex web-apps. Most of the grunt-work, including recalculating layout, is implemented in C++ as part of the browser.

2) Layout calculation can be slow-ish in extreme cases, but that's a direct tradeoff for the benefit of using the world's most advanced UI layout system, which provides real value.

3) Under normal circumstances an entire web page runs in a single thread, which can be a problem when the occasional expensive operation blocks other ones, but Electron gives you several options for moving expensive operations to separate threads. By default the web view runs in a separate thread from the "main" process, and you can spin up workers or even split your UI into separate web views so each panel gets its own thread.

I think the origins of this myth are:

1) Websites have become much slower than they need to be with the increase in JavaScript dependencies. 90% of this is due to ads and analytics, which couldn't care less about their impact on page performance. The rest has mostly to do with the initial load-time of that 1-2MB script, rather than the runtime of the actual JS code.

2) As with any technology that lowers the barriers to making things, there's been a dilution of less-skilled developers putting things out into the world, decreasing the overall perceived quality of the space. But this isn't an indictment of the technology; if anything, it's a complement. It has to be distinguished from the actual merits of the tech.

> but by using Chromium everywhere, developers don't have to deal with cross-browser issues

I think it has more to do with being able to build and ship copies for all systems through a single channel. Building a "first-class" Mac app (a dock icon, hooks into system APIs, etc.) that uses Safari's web view right now would probably mean opening XCode and writing quite a bit of actual Swift as a wrapper around the web UI. People don't want to do that; it defeats a lot of the purpose. My proposal in my last comment would solve this problem.

Re: The iOS and Mac markets are almost the same size?

#112
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The weight of Chrome as a browser and the more general concept of using the web as a desktop app platform are two different things. I understand where you're coming from, but when someone says says "Electron apps are slow resource hogs", they're fundamentally referring to the underlying engine that makes those apps slow. If that engine was fast and light on resources, the complaint wouldn't exist. Apple _does_ allo…

> they're fundamentally referring to the underlying engine that makes those apps slow. If that engine was fast and light on resources, the complaint wouldn't exist. Firstly: in that case you'd have to compare it to the weight of the entire desktop environment. I would bet money that Gnome + your GTK app is not meaningfully lighter-weight than Chrome + an Electron app. It's just that the former has a privileged place…

I don't think that the web is fundamentally slow! I do think Chromium in particular has become a major resource hog. Firefox, which doesn't have Safari's platform advantage, opens more quickly and takes up much less memory than Chrome (even as it still uses up battery quickly). Gnome Web, a Linux webkit-based browser for Linux, also performs quite admirably, so I'm not convinced Safari's success is simply due to its macOS integration.

There've been a couple attempts to build electron-like frameworks that use the OS's native webview, but they don't seem to have gained that much traction. Deskgap is probably the most mature of them, relatively speaking.

https://deskgap.com/

https://github.com/pojala/electrino

https://github.com/jscherer92/Quark

Re: The iOS and Mac markets are almost the same size?

#113
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For code, you’re probably right it isn’t all that great. But as text editor on the Mac it can do anything. What Photoshop is to images, BBEdit is to text.

>What Photoshop is to images, BBEdit is to text. Yeah I get all these platitudes and stuff but I have used it and it doesn't seem more flexible than emacs here.

It's not. But it's more friendly to non emacs-programmers.

Re: The iOS and Mac markets are almost the same size?

#114
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>What Photoshop is to images, BBEdit is to text. Yeah I get all these platitudes and stuff but I have used it and it doesn't seem more flexible than emacs here.

It's not. But it's more friendly to non emacs-programmers.

Fair.

Re: The iOS and Mac markets are almost the same size?

#115
post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If it does the same thing and has the same name and creator, is it really a different project? Yes? I don't even understand how this is a question. >The only reason what became Net News Wire 5 originally had a different name is because NNW was owned by BlackPixel at that point. From the post announcing the new name ( https://inessential.com/2018/08/31/netnewswire_comes_home ): >You probably know that I’ve been worki…

> Yes? I don't even understand how this is a question. Well that's where we philosophically disagree I guess. To me, version 10 of Mac OS is still the continuation of version 9 of Mac OS, even though they're fundamentally different systems under the hood.

>To me, version 10 of Mac OS is still the continuation of version 9 of Mac OS, even though they're fundamentally different systems under the hood.

Sure, and it carries over certain parts and leaves out others. Substantially similar? I'll buy that. Arguably the same thing, ontologically? I think that's a lot harder to prove, which is what the OP I replied to was saying.

Re: The iOS and Mac markets are almost the same size?

#116
post #26

Discoverability is horrible on the iOS App Store. I have looked for a good RSS reader on there in the past and only been served shovelware. I found out about NNW from DF the other day. Even after using and installing it, it is nowhere to be seen when I search for RSS. Apples broken App Store system surfaces cheap crappy apps. Apple wants users to make impulse purchases so they can skim 30% off the top. It’s a bad exp…

> Steve Jobs would be pissed Discoverability on the App Store has always been horrible. That, and App Store performance (search, page load, etc) are high on the list of things that baffle me most about Apple. These are not hard problems to fix. There is no incentive to not fix them. Customers are suffering. FTFAS.

I can't even remember where App Store hides the search button every time I look for an app (which I have to do because iOS provides no other way to search for an app already installed on my device)

Re: The iOS and Mac markets are almost the same size?

#117
post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's easy to add simple syntax highlighting for new languages to BBEdit -- more so than for other editors [edit: other editors I've tried to do syntax highlighting for, at least!] -- but it doesn't have a very feature-rich highlighting engine. And code formatting is pretty much a dead end, even though I'm fairly sure it would be possible to set it up. (One of the frustrating "what ifs" in the Mac editor world to me i…

>"oh, yeah, that widget right there looks really creaky." It's not so much this so much as it is not having the sort of Yosemite-esque translucency (I think vibrancy was the official name?) effect on sidebars and stuff which I've gotten extremely used to. >One of the frustrating "what ifs" in the Mac editor world to me is: what if BBEdit's makers had added packages and, better yet, a package manager, to the editor a…

> iirc it actually had/has a half-decent package format, but no manager or central repository for packages. The latter two are basically obligatory these days for a solid code editor, in my opinion.

Yes, and yes, and yes. :)

> Really all that I want is a hook to run a shell script on save that runs the current buffer through mix format or rustfmt or whatever. Is that more feasible?

It would totally be possible, with the caveat that this is where you hit the one thing that does look really creaky: BBEdit's native scripting language is AppleScript. You can "attach" scripts to every single menu item, to several kinds of events (including both before and after saving a document), and the script could basically just be a wrapper around a shell script, but AppleScript will unavoidably rear its verbose yet inscrutable face.

Re: The iOS and Mac markets are almost the same size?

#118
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A well-crafted, organic, gluten-free macOS app is generally the best UI and UX experience on any platform, by a mile. Apps that come to mind are Things by Cultured Code and (the as of yet unreleased to the public) Nova editor by Panic. No Electron app has ever even come close for me, certainly not VSCode that everyone seems to love so much. Then there's performance...

Agree with the first part. But I would say the Slack UX, from a visual and performance perspective (not necessarily intuitiveness), is as good as nearly any native Mac app I've ever used. VSCode, from a visual and performance perspective, is better than any native Windows app I've ever used, and also as good as many native Mac apps. I know people like to gripe about the memory usage and disk space usage of Electron a…

Strange, I’ve always thought Electron apps felt weird and slow. Slack has improved, but it still wigs out in low network situations.

Re: The iOS and Mac markets are almost the same size?

#119
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A well-crafted, organic, gluten-free macOS app is generally the best UI and UX experience on any platform, by a mile. Apps that come to mind are Things by Cultured Code and (the as of yet unreleased to the public) Nova editor by Panic. No Electron app has ever even come close for me, certainly not VSCode that everyone seems to love so much. Then there's performance...

Agree with the first part. But I would say the Slack UX, from a visual and performance perspective (not necessarily intuitiveness), is as good as nearly any native Mac app I've ever used. VSCode, from a visual and performance perspective, is better than any native Windows app I've ever used, and also as good as many native Mac apps. I know people like to gripe about the memory usage and disk space usage of Electron a…

The Slack UX that crashes and self reloads when you read a conversation and don't click on anything?

Re: The iOS and Mac markets are almost the same size?

#120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Plus the experience of Electron apps is generally superior lately Uh, I'm going to hard disagree on that. They take longer to open, they're slower to use, they take up more battery, and they don't behave in a consistent way with the rest of the OS.

I think he meant the developer, not the user experience is better.

When the developer doesn't have experience with anything but JavaScript...
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